How I was emotionally abusive to him.

Continuing on from the emails in the previous post, my husband today replied with his information about how I was emotionally abusive to him during our 15 year relationship:

I dont think i will be telling you anything i havent said before but the things i am having difficulty in distinguishing between abuse and whatever you want to call it are:

15 yrs of being made to feel guilty if i have gone out. When i gave the example of playing football I was trying to justify for you why you should have acted so negatively about me just playing football. I can understand with the P (ex -girlfriend that he still took out when we were living together) thing why you would feel anxious about me doing anything with R (P's brother), but apart from that i can only  think of 1 thing i have done to make you 'react' in an abusive way (regarding me socialising). The other is maintaining a friendship with E (a female friend that was in love with him)  for longer than i should, from my point of view I really liked her as a friend and thought that if i broke up our friendship because i had a girlfriend it would belittle the friendship we had and suggest there was more than friendship, from her side there was and you helped me see that it was therefor inappropriate to continue a friendship with her. I dont think you have reacted or been abusive regarding this though.

Right from the beginning of our relationship you didnt like to be left at home, not that we never went out together but yes sometimes once or twice a week i would go to pub with R (his best friend) and get drunk. I dont think it was as infrequent as i would like to remember, neither was it as frequent as you would. But it was normal for a 19 - 30 yr old to do. Should i have been more understanding that you sometimes couldnt go out because of A (my eldest daughter from a previous marriage)? If I had been every other night out on the town then yes, but the frequency i was going out no, not at all. Yes when we had E  then F (two of our children) there probably were times that I should have not gone out, so when you reacted to this i put it down to your nature of wanting to control my limited social life.

This did not suddenly just stop, over the years we have both matured and that sort of thing isnt as much of an issue, R (his best friend) wedding year was pretty heavy granted.

Last year when I went to 3 peaks my phone ran out of battery and you replied to the pictures i sent you from B's phone, You sent a message brimming with support and love, B read it out to everyone on the coach and it was really nice to hear such words of love that contrasted with everything else that you had sent to my phone and conversations we had had up until a few hours before that generally revolving around 'i dont know why you had to go up the day before/ this is just another excuse for a piss up/how much money have you spent blah blah blah. Being the abusive cynic i am i assume you wanted to portray some kind of loving and supportive wife wishing your husband well. maybe you just meant it as a joke, whatever motivated you to write that stuff it was really nice and would have been nicer if the only bit of moral support you sent was when other people werent watching. Why am i banging on about this and remebering such a small and insignificant detail that as usual i am sure you have forgot because you dont hang on to things like i do. Because i think it shows you know you behave inappropriatly but in front of people like to give a different more positive image. Is it reaction to how i am with you? i dont think so, it reminds me of someone who can scold someone then turn on a sugary smile for all to see, i wonder where i'm getting that reference from. (reference to my mum)

So in general ,years of ongoing critisism of me going out, not a few isolated occassions but constantly and gradually subsiding as the years have gone on.

We have discussed this already many times and i asume your stance is still that I should have only gone out the number of times in a year that you find acceptable. This wasnt something that grew into a bigger problem as my abusiveness became more prevaillant but started right from the beginning. From when i went to that rave, we just remember from our own perspective. Looking back now i dont see why I should have gone with you, I never asked you to go, you hated the music, you hated the scene, i didnt want you there and assumed you would not want to be there. You had your own assumptions that i think were if A goes out then I go out with him.

I know it is futile and you see me as raking up the past, but when you tell me that you were not being at best clingy and at worst controlling, but reacting to my abusiveness, I do not think that that part was abusive, and it did affect our relationship right from the start for years and years.

Another part i hate thinking about is that i feel you bullied me into having kids. I dont think you can ever be ready to have a family, but you can be ready to want one. I wanted to wait. J (relate) counsellor brushed this aside when I brought it up, I will talk in [abuse programme] about it. I love my children with all my heart and i dont like to bring it up but i feel you bulldozed your agenda, and it was such a big thing.

Disagreements on jobs/where to live/ houses/ how to spend money/decorating/ raising kids etc etc.

When you said you feel you had contributed about 50/50 to our problems in the relationship I did get the wrong end of the stick. The things you have listed with the exception of money have been i think fairly healthy debates where you have had a point of view and we possibly argued and we have ended up doing what you suggested in the first place, and with hind sight your plans/objectives have served us well on those things and they were good decisions. 

I thought you may have been admitting to bringing some kind of negative feelings ( generally associated with abuse) like jealousy, control, blaming etc. All you have referenced are things that good and positive decisions have come out of. So the only things you feel you have contributed 50/50 on are positive things. You do not feel you have done anything detrimental in our relationship for the whole 15+ years except in reaction to me. Maybe you could clarify what you are thinking of when you say you have done 'stupid' and 'idiotic' things, or were you just saying that but not meaning anything at all?

This email irritated me so much, for so many reasons.  My reply:

Ok.  I have taken all the bumph out of my list and whittled it down to bullet points (as you know).  Then I've printed it out and kept it so I can remind myself of the abusive incidents and everything.  Maybe you'll find it helpful to do the same?

• 15 yrs of being made to feel guilty if i have gone out.

• you bullied me into having kids

I've read through a couple of times but I think that's the whole list?

Yes, I know I'm being flippant/sarcastic but the whole self-righteous tone of your email just brings it out.  When you compare how abusive you have been to these two points I don't know how you've got the front to harp on about this stuff.  I really don't.

I will say again.  In a relationship where I received snarky remarks and constant disapproval for doing *anything* that wasn't cleaning/cooking/with the kids (reading blogs, being online, reading a book etc) then in my opinion, it would be a natural reaction for *most* people to then be resentful when that same person goes off regularly (every 2-3 months would have been extremely frequent compared to how often I did) overnight or for longer. 

We 'remember that differently' re: you going off and leaving me.  I'm sure I said something like that I didn't have anywhere to go and maybe I could come along to see what kind of thing you like to go to, and you said 'whatever but you won't like it' kind of thing.  I reassured that I would.  I got ready, you told me the car was full and left.  So no, you didn't invite me and maybe I shouldn't have 'invited myself'?  Maybe I didn't trust you because you had sworn you weren't doing drugs any longer (which I insisted due to us moving in together with Alyssa), maybe that's why you didn't want me to come - as you said a couple of emails ago 'I didn't want you to see me off my face'.  So you obviously still were.

Again, with the four peaks.  I did ask you how come a 24 hour walk was turning into a 3-4 day jolly.  This was not me being unsupportive and not wanting you to go out anywhere as you say.  It was due to the fact that last year you were away for about 2 weeks altogether (not including the 4 peaks) without your family while we went nowhere.  So, I did think you had some front and not a lot of sensitivity to be then choosing to go off for another jolly, and yes that irritated me.  Again, most people would probably think that I reacted quite normally.  But my memory was that during the whole time you were away (while you had your phone battery on) I was supportive.  I was supportive before too and I was proud of you afterwards and think I showed it.  But it is again, the context of my reactions.  In the context of the times you went away last year and my total lack of freedom to do anything - it was actually probably quite restrained.  So, if you think I'm taking this 'you were totally unsupportive and then only nice in public' thing to heart you can think again.  Stop playing the Victim.

As far as forcing you to have kids.. I don't know what to say about that.  Yes, I did put a lot of pressure on you about this and I shouldn't have done that.  I think I've apologised in the past about that and can say 100% that I will never do that again.  Like you say, it's difficult to discuss because we both love our kids and are happy to have them.

I have to laugh when you imply that I bulldoze you into doing everything that I want.  I believe that is a totally unrealistic portrayal of our life together.  Totally.  There have been a few things that have been really important to me that I've not allowed you to bulldoze me on (specifically certain things to do with the kids, home ed, moving here to K). 

You ask what are the stupid and idiotic things that I was referring to and probably the only one is in the list at the top.  I shouldn't have been so insistent about having children and 'bulldozed' you as you say.

As far as my attitude to you going out, well - that was created in my opinion by the way you have treated me.

And so where does that leave the idea that I'm emotionally abusive?  All I see here are distractions away from the main issue (your abusiveness), trying to shift as much blame as possible from you to me, and attempts to justify your behaviour.  

I got a reply to my email pretty quickly and it was at this point that I decided to pull the plug on this ridiculous exchange that was certainly not good for my mental health or anything, really for that matter.  I know already that I can never present information or argument that would every change his mind, no matter what it is, so I may as well stand and bash my head against a brick wall than sit down and expend time and energy on this sort of exchange.  He doesn't want to, and never will, ever concede my point of view.

Your sarcastic comments you start with? would you find it more validating if i gave you more than 2 things i am not happy with? I dont see this as a contest of who can score more points against the other. I realise that the whole part of this discussion is sidetracking from looking at me as an abuser so have looked at things that I find particularly important to me, if that means there are only 2 points then that is that! Since looking at abuse as the problem I fairly quickly came to agree that yes i have been abusive on many different levels, I dont think you are an abusive person but i do think that the 2 points i have raised use abusive techniques.

 

Why are you not listening to what i am saying, is it because I then wouldnt fit into your pigeonholed profiling. I can understand over time how you would have started reacting to me being abusive which is why i am looking far back to the start when you were even more controlling, considering as time has gone on we have had kids and more responsiblities your controlling nature has mellowed rather than gotten worse.

 

You have any right to tell me how to live my life or spend my time, in any way

 

It would be totally hypocritical to treat me as you have over the years as well as expecting the above,  now you have become less controlling to non-existant and think you have always been like that? or that anything you have done is in reaction to me despite you being like that from the very start. you have the gaul to call me self righteous.

 

Your recollection of what happened when i went clubbing is wrong. It was about 2 weeks in to our relationship, you were still living at <ex-husband's>, at that time you made no demands regarding drugs. AS (friend) and her bloke were going into london and you had assumed we could both go with them or both go to a rave. I just wanted to go without you raving (sad i know) but its what i wanted. We discussed what to do, you tried to make me feel bad by saying stuff like 'when people are together they go clubbing together, thats what 'normal' couples do' and that 'i wouldnt like it if you wanted to go clubbing without me' and you were right i wouldnt have liked it, but that would have been my abusive side trying to stop you doing stuff. You will probably say i am harping on again, my main point is that this was 2 weeks into our relationship, very early, I would be open to the suggestion that you were 'reacting' to something I did, but you were speaking from your own beliefs, it happened to soon in our relationship for it to be reaction to me.

 

4 peaks stuff - while i was away we spoke and texted, you were frosty to the point of just pissed off with me, i accept it probably was partly in reaction to me. But the text to Bs phone was so contrasting that when i got my phone working I showed him the conversations we had been having, it made your nicey nicey one just laughable. If you dont want to look at why you would be like that then fine. Yes you emailed round to help get money and wished me well, but the text to Bs phone was from another person. If i am playing the victim so what if you cant look at yourself.

 

You misunderstand bulldozing, i was only talking about having kids.

 

Moving to <present house>? as soon as i saw the house i was signing on the dotted line. My only point was that it would drive us further into debt, which it did.

 

So just to confirm your 50/50  negative part you had in our entire 15yr plus relationship was bulldozing your wish to have kids? And that is it. I need to know for when i discuss in <abuser program>

<sigh> why do I let myself be drawn in?  Total waste of time and energy.  No longer - I will be strong!

How to tell if he is REALLY changing

Quote from The Book (Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft):

Steps to Change

1. Admit fully to his history of psychological, sexual, and physical abusiveness toward any current or past partners whom he has abused.  Denial and minimizing need to stop, including discrediting your memory of what happened.  He can't change if he is continuing to cover up, to others or to himself, important parts of what he has done.
2. Acknowledge that the abuse was wrong, unconditionally.  He needs to identify the justifications he has tended to use, including the various ways that he may have blamed you, and to talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable without slipping back into defending them.
3. Acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control.  For example, he needs to recognize that there is a moment during each incident at which he gives himself permission to become abusive and that he chooses how far to let himself go.
4. Recognize the effects his abuse has had on you and on your children, and show empathy for those.  He needs to talk in detail about the short- and long-term impact that the abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, and loss of freedom and other rights.  And he needs to do this without reverting to feeling sorry for himself or talking about how hard the experience has been for him.
5. Identify in detail his pattern of controlling behaviors and entitled attitudes.  He needs to speak in detail about the day-to-day tactics of abuse he has used.  Equally important, he must be able to identify his underlying beliefs and values that have driven those behaviors, such as considering himself entitled to constant attention, looking down on you as inferior, or believing that men aren't responsible for their actions if "provoked" by a partner.
6. Develop respectful behaviors and attitudes to replace the abusive ones he is stopping.  You can look for examples such as improving how well he listens to you during conflicts and at other times, carrying his weight of household responsibilities and child care, and supporting your independence.  He has to demonstrate that he has come to accept the fact that you have rights and that they are equal to his.
7. Re-evaluate his distorted image of you, replacing it with a more positive and empathic view.  He has to recognize that he has had mental habits of focusing on and exaggerating his grievances against you and his perceptions of your weaknesses and to begin instead to compliment you and pay attention to your strengths and abilities.
8. Make amends for the damage he has done.  He has to develop a sense that he has a debt to you and to your children as a result of his abusiveness.  He can start to make up somewhat for his actions by being consistently kind and supportive, putting his own needs on the back burner for a couple of years, talking with people whom he has misled in regard to the abuse and admitting to them that he lied, paying for objects that he has damaged and many other steps related to cleaning up the emotional and literal messes that his behaviors have caused.  (At the same time, he needs to accept that he may never be able to fully compensate you.)
9. Accept the consequences of his actions.  He should stop whining about, or blaming you for, problems that are the result of his abuse, such as your loss of desire to be sexual with him, the children's tendency to prefer you, or the fact that he is on probation.
10. Commit to not repeating his abusive behaviors and honor that commitment.  He should not place any conditions on his improvement, such as saying that he won't call you names as long as you don't raise your voice to him.  If he does backslide, he cannot justify his abusive behaviors by saying, "But I've done great for five months; you can't expect me to be perfect," as if a good period earned him chips to spend on occasional abuse.
11. Accept the need to give up his privileges and do so.  This means saying good-bye to double standards, to flirting with other women, to taking off with his friends all weekend while you look after the children, and to being allowed to express anger while you are not.
12. Accept that overcoming abusiveness is likely to be a life-long process.  He at no time can claim that his work is done by saying to you, "I've changed but you haven't", or complain that he is sick of hearing about his abuse and control and that "it's time to get past all that".  He needs to come to terms with the fact that he will probably need to be working on his issues for good and that you may feel the effects of what he has done for many years.
13. Be willing to be accountable for his actions, both past and future.  His attitude that he is above reproach has to be replaced by a willingness to accept feedback and criticism, to be honest about any backsliding, and to be answerable for what he does and how it effects you and your children.

Phew!  If you are in or have ever been in an abusive relationship you will probably look at this list and think "that'll never happen" like I did/am.  I think it probably highlights how long and difficult the process of changing core beliefs and values will be.  I look at a few of these and can see that my dh will find those probably reasonably easy but others virtually impossible for him.  Properly - I suppose any change can be faked (and I'll copy over the list of 'how to tell when he's not changing' another time!) but they can't fake it indefinitely.  The truth of what they think/believe will have to come out at some point.

For my husband, I can see he's right at the beginning, making headway on some but probably hasn't achieved any of the above steps yet.  Step one - admit fully, without minimizing etc - well even yesterday I reminded him of when he sat on the bed saying "why can't you just obey me?" (in a half-jokey way) and his response was "but you said stuff like that".  (Which I didn't)  So, even with step one his sense of entitlement is (as Bancroft says) "like a rude, arrogant voice screaming inside his head".  I do have to wonder how far he can drag his sense of entitlement and justification before he falls back.  Pessimism, or realism?  Time will tell.

Jealousy, possessiveness, ownership

Part of an email my husband sent after week 3 of his abuser course.  He was role-playing a woman in a domestically violent relationship, set in a club where she was innocently dancing around and he was 'watching and stewing':

The scene they set was so true to our life I had to point out that it had direct relevance to me. We are covering jealousy later on the course but they 'indulged' me for a while. 

I said that while i was playing Sonia, i had been 'innocently' dancing with other blokes, i told them that when we were out I wouldnt think of you dancing innocently and i would stew about you wanting to be with other blokes. I cant even remember you dancing with anyone else except J and maybe R (two of his friends), but i know i have been in clubs with you 'spying' on you and waiting for you to go off with someone else so i can then justify my mental paranoia. 

Since we have had kids this sort of thing hasnt been a problem as we havent really been out. I have thought even before the course, how will i react if in a few years we go out and you are dancing with other men, i dont know. I dont think you would be going around dancing with one man to the next, but i would like to be the sort of person who can look at their wife dancing with someone else and think 'i am glad R is having a good time'.

I am wondering if it is my pre conceptions of what dancing with someone means, to be honest i think if someone was dancing with someone else in a club they would therefore fancy them, however if you had been dancing with R, i would see that as nothing, but i see J as a threat as i probably would a stranger.

I keep going back years ago when you would explain to me about life in <Caribbean> where anyone was dirty wining with whoever and it was just about having a good time, In my head i think it is too intimate to be 'just dancing'. If someone danced with me like that i would assume they wanted to have sex.

I know this is part of the bigger picture of jealousy and because i know i am really jealous i see that my view is probably skewed at best and actually wrong. I am looking for discussion/guidance.

I went to sleep, slept well (!) and this morning composed my reply to him:

 I don't think this is deliberate on your behalf, but what I see here is distraction away from the actual problem (your jealousy/values/attitudes) to focus on something which is not the problem at all.  I don't know if it's uncomfortable for you or hasn't occurred to you, to actually look at what values are driving this relentless unwarranted jealousy.  Lundy basically says that it's down to ownership - you basically think that I belong to you and all your jealous behaviours come from that value.  I don't know if this is true, or whether you could admit it if it was but might be worth thinking about. 

Anyway, I am not going to get into a discussion about this for a few reasons.  

Firstly, the problem here isn't my behaviour so it is pointless discussing my behaviour in hopes it will solve the problem.  I think of A here (my friend).  Her constant obsession over one part of her body - which part of the body she focusses on changes over time - but one thing I can be sure of is that she will not suddenly be happy if that certain part of her body is changed.  She will then fixate on another part of her body.  Not because there is anything wrong with her body, which isn't perfect but isn't fundamentally flawed either, but because there is a problem inside that needs to be fixed.  Likewise, your jealousy problem is not caused by any external factors or behaviour of another person, it is caused by something inside you.  Discussing the particular behaviours will not change the problem.  

Secondly, you might think it will change the problem but I assume we can both agree that in the past constant reassurance, discussion and my *actual* behaviour (never having been unfaithful) hasn't changed your jealousy.  You may disagree and still think it could, but I don't believe it can.  In fact, for me, it is actually harmful.  I need to reassert to myself and you that I haven't done anything wrong, I don't need to justify myself, that undermining like this (which it would be to get into a discussion of this) is really unhealthy for me.   

Thirdly, if anything else needs to be said... I don't think that this is the only thing you can't handle jealousy wise - as I mention above.  This is just the thing you are thinking of at the moment.  It is crazy to be wanting to discuss something that hasn't happened in over a decade because you are still fixated on it!  See 'did you sleep with J' (aforementioned friend of his) last year!  Plus, I'm thinking of the fact you think I'm sleeping with anyone I talk to (D?! (a female friend of mine)) and I hope you can see why I think the problem is not my behaviour and whether it is or was justifiable in any context, but your values and jealousy. 

I hope that part of the course comes round soon! 

It's interesting what you say about the role play.  I can't imagine that a role play would be so effective, but it sounds like it was useful.  Maybe I'm being ... suspicious here... but reading your email it felt a bit like you'd only mentioned the role play and apologised for physical violence etc to 'soften me up' so you could then discuss the perceived dancing issue.  Maybe you would have felt embarrassed going straight into the jealousy thing?  Maybe I'm over-thinking it. 

I know this probably isn't what you were hoping to get back in response, but hopefully it's of use.

I was hoping to back up with a few quotes from Why Does He Do That but I didn't have the time to read through it.  However, there is loads in there about this abusive possessiveness and jealousy.

I await his response, but am happy with what I sent him.

And then what happened?

After I sent that last email (previous post) I was absolutely high on anger.  However during the course of the day it subsided into disappointment and pure sorrow.  The possibility of him making any kinds of change just seem to be a million miles away from this email, even though it is such early days.  That small candle of hope died out a little bit more.

He didn't reply to that email until two days later when I asked him why the woman from the abuser programme was phoning me (I couldn't talk, was out with the children) and received this text:

Probably to let you know your husband is one of the best abusers they have seen and that despite still showing abusive traits of criticising, blaming etc he thinks you are a wonderful person.

I was obviously thrown off by this, following from previous emails.

He was picking up my eldest in the evening and dropping her home, so I asked him to stay back to talk.  I didn't want to talk about this specifically, but our daughter's birthday was the following day and we had to discuss plans/arrangements etc.

I have to be honest at this point and acknowledge that I also wanted to see him.  I suddenly missed him loads and wanted to be close to him.  I was also hormonal.  The hormonal time when you want sex (around ovulation).  God, I can't believe I'm being so honest on a blog!!  I was totally aware of this by the way.

So he came over in the evening and we talked for three hours.  Mainly about birthday arrangements, ongoing problems with the children etc.

Then I laid my cards on the table.  I asked him why it's so difficult for him to change if he loves me and lots of other things I can't remember.  He said he's sorry, he knows that everything is his fault, he is sorry that he's hurt me and that he knows that after everything that has happened it must make me feel even more hurt to read his abusive email.  He apologised for that, said he wrote it in anger (as I could tell due to lack of punctuation) and he doesn't know why he said those mean things because it's not what he thinks at all.  He spoke about the programme and various things in the book.

And I believed him.  I wanted to be close to him so I hugged him, we kissed, we ended up having sex.  :-/

Well, my anger took over.

My reply to my husband's email in the previous post was initially a short 'let's not do this, nothing is being achieved' type reply.  However, I felt angry with him and angry with the situation and as I'm trying not to repress my feelings any more and go with my intuition, I decided to send a 'fuller' email:

Ok.  Didn't want to get into it but I just have to reply.  I know it's pointless, and not good for me (or probably you) but anyway.  Will just have to 'act in haste and repent at leisure' or whatever the saying is.

I refered to D as you give the impression that it was just me that thought the house used to be messy, and that even if it was then so what. Whether people like the house clean is not the issue!!!!! Of course people like to live in a clean house.  The issue is that you thought it was my job to clean the house to your spec.  Or that someone with X amount of young children, with various other issues going on was sitting on her fat ass living the life of riley and doing 'fuck all'.  D wouldn't think that!  Neither would most normal non-abusive people.  That is what I was saying!!   It sounds as if your friendship with D is a world away from that of a few months ago when you said you found it difficult to talk with her as you felt she was being 'indirectly critical of you in some way. Again, storing up something I've discussed with you that I was worried about to twist around and 'use' against me.  God, could you be any more of a text book abuser?  What I was discussing with you in relation to D was that she didn't understand some of the parenting decisions that I have made.  A lot of people don't because people generally want to just control their kids.  But D is my friend so that upset me at a time that S was being particularly difficult.  NOTHING to do with this discussion at all!   Yes i did mention my mum,but then said for obvious reasons wont use her as an example. I was looking to use someone that you would feel comfortable with to say 'look its not just me that likes to live in a tidy house, 'normal' people like it also'. Again, twisting everything.  THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE.  Your workload; as far as stuff round the house i would agree that you did lions share, i would not question that at all. and you must be happy that the small increase in workload has meant the house is nice and tidy now.  Little dig there?  I haven't had a small increase in workload.  I have had a large decrease in workload which is why the house is nice and tidy now.  Because you are not here being another person creating mess and I now have a bit of time each week without the children to potter around and do housework.  The quotes from the book you used i understand and recognise in me. I struggle with the concept 'he doesnt believe that you should set any limits on his conduct or insist he meet his responsibilities' Is that not the conditioning that you as the woman are trying to escape? I understand that part as the man has should have no control over you (which i agree with) but the woman can have control over the man because we will substitute the word control with limits his conduct, and who is setting these responsiblities, you, me, lundy, society. that part to me seems like double standards, i dont get it.Well I hope that you do get it during the programme, because you are misunderstanding this bit.  Deliberately or not, I don't know.  I enjoy knowing that it is ok to go out and be tired/hungover the next day without being judged as a bad father.I am glad that you can enjoy this now.  Of course, let's ignore the fact that I rarely ever went out or had any time to myself.  Maybe I was a little irate about that.  Especially as if I did ever do something for myself then I got hauled over the coals for it (I can only use the writing course as an example because there has barely been anything else over the last 5 years).   that if i have to work late on a job i have not failed as a husband.Ok.  I am sure I have never said or implied that you have failed as a husband.  You have.  But I have never before said it, and not for this reason.  that if i spend money on tennis i have not taken it away from the family. Does the twisting around just come naturally?  How many times did I encourage you to play tennis with people or say that it might be a good way to make friends?  The ONLY times I ever discussed tennis in the negative was in reaction to you complaining about my writing course - trying to show that we both NEED to spend time doing our own thing.  And when you said you didn't have any time I would say 'what about tennis'.  REACTING TO YOU REACTING TO YOU REACTING TO YOU.  Likewise, if I ever mentioned money it was because you would have been complaining about me spending money on myself that 'we didn't have'.  REACTING TO YOU REACTING TO YOU REACTING TO YOU.  Get it??  Yesterday when you called and i was at M's i had a worried feeling that i was out late doing something i shouldnt, i am sure that will pass with time. I expect you will deny you ever treated me like that, maybe over the past few years, but over a decade of being made to feel guilty for going out kind of gets ingrained into you. You!?  You, who accused me of cheating saying this.... it's really quite funny.  'Abuse 101' as Lundy might say.  If I ever made you feel guilty for going out it was because I NEVER WENT OUT YET ANY TIME I TRIED TO HAVE TIME TO MYSELF YOU COULDN'T LET IT GO - writing course.  (have to harp on about this because I never had any time to myself otherwise).  You are right about double standards, but I'm not the one who had them.  I know that in the sexist world we live combined with my physical abusiveness and ongoing emotional abuse you have suffered more than me, but you have given me some crap as well.REACTING TO YOU.  I know I probably seem angry and irrational here A*****.  But I just can't believe you are still living so firmly in this justified, entitled world you have built around you.  Has nothing made any impact at all?  Nothing?  You are so firmly in denial it is scary.  I think it's going to be a long while before we can actually discuss any part of our relationship.  We are still poles apart.  Poles apart.  Let's carry on as we have been for the last few weeks while you attend the programme, and I carry on with what I'm doing.  I'd say it will be another couple of months or more before we might be ready to discuss this stuff properly.  I don't know what you think.    I just would like to add: "Step number 4 demands that the abusive man accept his partner's right to be angry.  He actually has to take seriously the furious things she says and think about them rather than using her emotional pitch as an excuse to stuff her opinions back down her throat".  (the part about real change). Although I know this was probably pointless.  Actually, I feel a whole load better having said it.

How is all this change coming along?

After my blog post the other night I called my husband back and we had a long conversation.

It was the same old stuff, he was re-gurgitating the old 'housework' stuff and making out he couldn't understand when something was a simple request or abusive blah blah blah.  Really, he is just feeling exactly the same.  He played a couple of new cards in this conversation though, so must have been thinking about it all for a while.

The discussion was interrupted when my youngest woke up so was continued briefly by text.

Me: Hmmm. I feel a bit like we've done the same old, same old a bit there.  Discuss different times/ways I didn't live up to your expectations, then how I behaved the same as you did.  Do you honestly believe that to be true?  That I put the same level (or anywhere near it) of expectations, forced my opinions or general disappointment as you did me?

dh: No, I never felt physically intimidated as you probably did, and I know that when you wanted me home instead of work it was because you needed support/wanted your husband to be with you.  At the same time if you say you have never imposed your beliefs onto me then I don't agree and will give examples.  There are what I see as easy fixes (for my own abusiveness) like the physical abuse, I can identify and rectify and say I would never do that again.  But the belief part I am finding really difficult.

Me: I know.  I don't want to get sucked back into endlessly discussing the trivia which i believe strongly are not the problem.  I know you prefer single incidents to highlight things but in this situation it doesn't work (in my opinion) because it is the whole picture.  Yes, someone can say "what have you been doing all day?" but that action is not abusive, it's the pattern/underlying attitude that pervades every interaction and emotion that is the problem.  Saying for example that I did 'X' doesn't really help unless you are saying that to a)justify what you did or b) show that you were no worse than me.  If this is the case then what is the point?

dh:  I was using the work examples when you said you have never made me feel bad by imposing your beliefs onto me.  I cannot think of any other way to try and validate my point of view on that matter.  I know that re hashing the old arguments isn't constructive in itself, but like I said I know that imposing my beliefs on you is wrong, so why do I still feel there are certain things I am justified about?  I don't think you are 'beneath' me at all, I don't feel woman are subservient to men, but I still feel there were things I 'had a right' to feel justified about, and that is a fundamental problem and it manifests itself as domestic duties which is why it keeps coming up time and time again.  I am sure you feel exhausted going over the same stuff again.  The only things I need to clarify with you are what you feel actually happened and hopefully within the group I can discuss it an not make you feel worse or critisized.

Me: I never said "I have never made you feel bad by imposing my beliefs'.  This is where I see you changing what I said and what I meant to excuse/justify your own actions.  I asked you specifically how you would have felt if I had spent the last 14 years continually telling you or implying that you were not earning enough money to support the family and that if you were out working then I expect you to bring home a certain (unspecified) amount which you never quite managed.  Continuing the analogy I was using in the hope you might find it useful (clearly you didn't) would have been about how I would also disapprove of anything you did which wasn't getting the money - bar certain other activities that I defined as acceptable - and so on.  It was pointless really, as I should have known because yet again you changed what I was trying to show or what I said and took a few isolated incidents that were largely unrelated to 'prove your point'.
Oh, and I honestly think that over the years what I was doing was trying to support you in what I thought (because you said it) that you wanted - to be able to be working less.  Maybe I over-assumed that your priority would be spending time with the kids but most times I was talking about hours you were working in relation to showing you that you could work less to achieve what I thought you wanted.  Not what I believed you should want.  Obviously if you tell me that you never wanted to work less or be home more then I was incorrect in those assumptions.  That is totally different to the whole thing to do with you, me and my role as the perfect wife, mother, cleaner.

I can't believe the lengths of those texts!  He didn't reply to the above for some reason and I had a sleepless night.  Fell asleep after midnight, woke frequently and finally woke before 6am.

What I've decided to do is be true and honest to myself.  If I have anything I want to say to him, I'm just going to say it.  With that in mind the next day I wrote the following email:

Ok.  I had hardly a wink of sleep last night - don't know about you... 

So, you say that the only thing you need to clarify is what I think happened.  I don't know what you are referring to with regard to this...? 

Anyway, I felt like I needed to write an email because text is ridiculous for communicating anything. 

I couldn't believe the conversation last night.  Although you were saying that you understood that this thing of expectations (or entitlement) was wrong that you didn't yet believe it.  That's no surprise considering you are only on week 2, but so much of what you said last night was pure entitlement and justification.  Example - D (a good friend of mine)!!!  I couldn't believe that!  If I walk into D's house and say 'what the hell's going on, it's a tip' or vice versa it's not actually an accusation that I/she believes that she/I hasn't been doing what they should be doing, or what 'everyone else' ought to be doing.  I think maybe you should phone D to find out if she believes that there have been times when I've not done all I ought to have been doing in the house.  I'm sure she'll be honest  with you about what she thinks.  This is another example of storing away a comment or even 10 that D may have made and then using them to justify your own sense of entitlement!  For goodness sake!  I know that D thinks I have and always have had my work cut out, that I rarely get a minute to myself, that I do everything for or with the kids, most of all that I work hard.  I don't think she ever would say that I live a life of luxury, lounging around reading and having a self focussed lifestyle as you have attempted to assert for a long long time. 

Yet again, we are discussing this topic!!!  Will it ever pass???!  You using something else to 'prove' that really you were right, which is taken totally out of context and/or is totally irrelevant. 

You also mentioned your mum's opinion which made me smile and shake my head.  Your mum got the edited version of our life, one where you came home from work bringing shopping on the way, cooked meals, cleaned and tidied around, basically did stuff that was not your normal thing!  I always felt like I had a bit of a holiday when your mum came!  Was great!  But it was not how things normally were.  You may disagree and I won't be surprised if you do, but that is my opinion of the truth.  So any opinions your mum has formed are not really accurate, I feel.  Also, she has lived with an emotionally abusive man for a long time and probably thought what she saw of our family was loads better than hers, but 1. it was edited and 2. being a bit less shit than shit doesn't make it good.  Also, I've overheard your little comments to your mum and occasionally Abi, last time at Christmas when I walked in as you were saying you'd 'had enough of waiting on me' and implying I wasn't really very ill - what a joke!   

Anyway, here I am yet again arguing with you over this trivia.  Sigh. 

So, moving on.  What do I feel happened?  I'm not sure what you are referring to. 

I think this sums it up:
"The Demand Man is highly entitled.  He expects his partner's life to revolve around meeting his needs and is angry and blaming if anything gets in the way.... The partner of this man comes to feel that nothing she does is ever good enough, and that it is impossible to make him happy.  He criticizes her frequently, usually about things that he thinks she should have done - or done better - for him."   

"The abusive man's high entitlement leads him have unfair and unreasonable expectations, so that the relationship revolves around his demands.  His attitude is "You owe me".  For each ounce he gives, he wants a pound in return.  He wants his partner to devote herself fully to catering to him, even if it means that her own needs get neglected.  You can pour all your energy into keeping your partner content, but if he has this mind-set he'll never be satisfied for long.  And he will keep feeling that you are controlling him, because he doesn't believe that you should set any limits on his conduct or insist that he meet his responsibilities". 

"He exaggerates and overvalues his own contributions... He seems to keep a mental list of any favours or kindnesses he ever does.. He thinks you owe him tremendous gratitude for meeting the ordinary responsibilities of daily life - when he does - but takes your contributions for granted" 

In fact, as far as clarifying what's happened in our relationship from my point of view - the book pretty much spells it out perfectly.  Every problem or issue practically is discussed at length.  That's why I feel pretty confident now in my perceptions of what has happened.  You'll never be able to convince me, no matter what you pull out of the bag, that I have been self serving, lazy or lead a selfish lifestyle.  I always knew it was incorrect, because I lived my life and knew that your description of it was wrong, but now I can be confident that you are wrong and see clearly the reasons why you are still trying to explain how I was like that, and even how other non-abusive people saw me like that too (D).  I am so happy to be free from the questioning of myself that you used to impose on me! 

One thing I've noticed since you left is that my workload at home has not hardly increased at all.  I think maybe one or two extra dishwasher loads to empty/fill, take the bins out and maybe an extra wash load a week?  It's become so obvious to me that I was indeed doing 95% of everything to do with running the household (including bills/paperwork/food/clothes etc shopping).  I'm so happy to have that confirmed.  Another area of A*****-imposed self doubt slips away. 

 I'm not saying this because I want you to feel bad, and I'm sure you don't - you probably just disagree and think I've still got it all wrong - but I do want to be honest.  I don't want to keep quiet about what I feel and think any more. 

So, although I miss you and your company I don't miss most of the things that you brought with you.  I'm absolutely enjoying being my own person.  I can cook what I want, buy what I want, clean what and when I want, read if I want, watch what I want on the tv etc.  Nobody disapproving of me and my actions.  It's wonderful.  I finally feel that this is my home.  To live under watch is not a positive state. 

I mean most of this discussion is about one small area.  We've not touched on the jealousy, accusations that I've been unfaithful, and so on.  These are the things that I wonder about.
If we lived separately forever, but decided to be in a relationship then ?maybe the issue over whether I am good enough around the house wouldn't be an issue.  But what about the rest.  Even if we didn't live together wouldn't you still make snide comments to belittle me?  Would you believe I was unfaithful and accuse me?  Would your need to control me get even worse?  Would you be able to argue without twisting things round?  Would you ever be able to take responsibility for your actions instead of blaming me/anyone else?   

I suppose these are the issues that will hopefully be decided over the next 6 months - I hope.
So, this is what I think and how I'm feeling at the moment.  I do still feel I love you and want to be with you, but am wondering if I even know you?  The real you, under all this crap ... or is this crap the real you and there is nothing underneath?  If I knew 100% that we'd be able to have a happy, healthy, normal relationship I'd be back together in a heartbeat.  I don't know if I'll ever know that. 

None of these opinions or feelings or emotions are up for debate, or to being denied.

I didn't hear anything all day yesterday, and was slightly apprehensive.  I thought that the reply I got would tell me a lot about how things are going for him.  This was the reply he finally sent late last night:

As you say we have gone over this subject too many times, i think i understand the accepted view that it is not right to judge or expect others to do things to your own expectations. So when i ask about clarification it is because as i said yesterday are couples not allowed to request anything from the other incase it is seen as abuse. From what you said i understand it depends on whether one of the parties has had a long history of negative attitude and disapproval of the other, this then taints any 'reasonable' request. 

This is how i now understand it from speaking to you yesterday, so i look back to things i have requested from you that I feel are not overstepping the 'abuse boundary' such as asking you to sew my trousers. If you think this sort of thing in itself is abusive then i still dont understand, but if it is that on top of abusive beliefs and entitlement it is tainted then i do undertand that.


I refered to D as you give the impression that it was just me that thought the house used to be messy, and that even if it was then so what. I dont think it is wrong to want to live in a clean and tidy environment and I feel that people like D have the same opinion. I have not given any thought as to whether she feels you work hard, live a life of luxury, lounge around reading having a self focussed lifestyle. I know these are things i have rashly said before, but not regarding this. It sounds as if your friendship with D is a world away from that of a few months ago when you said you found it difficult to talk with her as you felt she was being 'indirectly critical of you in some way.


Yes i did mention my mum ,but then said for obvious reasons wont use her as an example. I was looking to use someone that you would feel comfortable with to say 'look its not just me that likes to live in a tidy house, 'normal' people like it also'.


When my mum was here yes i did sometimes get some shopping, cook meals, cleaned and tidied, basically did stuff that yes i did normally do, not the majority of the time but regularly (especially at weekends) so if she was here at those times she would witness that. But unless it was xmas the majority of the meals she ate were yours, you did most of the shopping and tidying. it sounds like your implying that i only ever did stuff when she was here?
I dont agree with a lot of my mums opinions regarding domestic stuff and  it gives good examples of how i am abusive with you.


Your workload; as far as stuff round the house i would agree that you did lions share, i would not question that at all. and you must be happy that the small increase in workload has meant the house is nice and tidy now.


The quotes from the book you used i understand and recognise in me. I struggle with the concept 'he doesnt believe that you should set any limits on his conduct or insist he meet his responsibilities' Is that not the conditioning that you as the woman are trying to escape? I understand that part as the man has should have no control over you (which i agree with) but the woman can have control over the man because we will substitute the word control with limits his conduct, and who is setting these responsiblities, you, me, lundy, society. that part to me seems like double standards, i dont get it.


I too share your feeling of freedom, it is nice and i am still getting used to it. I enjoy knowing that it is ok to go out and be tired/hungover the next day without being judged as a bad father.that if i have to work late on a job i have not failed as a husband.that if i spend money on tennis i have not taken it away from the family. Yesterday when you called and i was at M's i had a worried feeling that i was out late doing something i shouldnt, i am sure that will pass with time. I expect you will deny you ever treated me like that, maybe over the past few years, but over a decade of being made to feel guilty for going out kind of gets ingrained into you. 

I know that in the sexist world we live combined with my physical abusiveness and ongoing emotional abuse you have suffered more than me, but you have given me some crap as well.

So, I would be really interested to hear what other people make of this reply.  I just hear the same stuff and think nothing has changed at all!  I know he is only at the beginning of this so-called journey to change but even after reading the book, attending 3 individual sessions, 2 group sessions and us being separated... well, nothing seems to have changed.  

Most of what is in the email is just lies, or more accurately things that have happened but have been twisted around to try to blame me.

One good thing - I've decided to look for abuse counselling for me asap.

Abuser group - week 1

Last night was dh's first group session on the abuser's course.  He has had three individual sessions but joined the group last night for the first time.

This was our text exchange last night.

Me: What happened tonight?  Did you go?

DH: Just got back, it was ok.  As there are 11 others I didn't get to discuss exact things related to me the whole time (unlike the past few weeks).  I think I will have to keep referring back to my own experiences rather than wait for someone to try and draw it out of me.  We were discussing physical violence, this week was about identifying, I think next week will be relating to ourselves, and the week after how to stop/avoid, but I am just assuming  (can you sense the entitlement issues here?)

Me: Does it relate at all to what Bancroft describes?

DH: What he describes as physical abuse?

Me: No, the programme.

DH: A bit, I think Bancroft would be a lot harsher, I read online he thinks all abusers should do time.  I can understand that but I don't really agree with a lot of custodial sentancing, especially if it's me getting sent down.

Me: Hmmmm.  I wish Bancroft's programme was in the uk.

DH: I think it follows it very closely, but he doesn't actually set out a step by step guide to a good course.  But some of the points he raised as signs of a good course are lacking.

Me: Like?

DH: They don't tell you everything.  Apart from one bloke, everyone seems to fully accept their abusiveness and are concentrating on how to stop. Maybe they are just saying the right things, but from reading Bancroft he comes up against a lot of denial.  I saw this in the first week but not really today.

Me: Fully accept or accept bits?

DH: It is a 27 week programme so after my 1st 2 hrs with 11 other blokes I have only just met I couldn't really say.

Me: Alright.  No need to get narked.

DH: Tonight was about getting us to think about stuff, we watched a video with actors playing a scene of Domestic Violence.  It could have been easy to look at it and say 'I'm not like that' or just not say anything, like I said I think the thing will be to keep recognising the relative bits and relating them to my own experience.

Me: Will leave you to think.

So.  I am not engaging too much, but trying to be supportive and find out exactly what is happening and how he is reacting to this.  It's a difficult path to tread.  Getting information (the programme won't be giving me any) without getting involved.

I don't know what others think when they read this.  I am interested-from-a-distance.