Email from A

No sooner do I post up my previous blog entry than I find the following email in my inbox:

I have been thinking since our last discussion constantly about us/me/you. I have been planning to write a lengthy email to try to put my points of view across, but with all the romance and festivities of today feel it not appropriate and that there is so much more to put ones energy into. I love you B and not one moment goes by without me knowing that we are in this position because of me.
 
Your 'dealbreakers' are things that I agree with, but i still do feel that you were not acting either appropriatly or as a reaction to me in respect to allowing me time away from the family/you. I think that there were many times when i overstepped the mark and should have respected you and your wishes. I feel that as time went on that yes you were reacting to my behaviour.
 
I dont want to dwell on the past. I want to look forward to a future where we are together.
 
You are so beautiful
 
A

I thought...

You were the one
You loved me
You'd never cheat
We'd grow old together
We liked each other
You liked me
We were meant to be together
I'd laugh more than cry
My dreams might come true
Our children would have married parents
Our children would have a secure home
It would be different for us
We were it

What a fucking idiot I am

Unfortunately I sent this to my husband last night.  I was pre-menstrual and feeling very emotional and full of sadness and grief.  Even while I was feeling this I knew that it was totally hormone-related and that I should wait for it to pass.  But I couldn't stop myself, literally the hormonal feelings were overwhelming and I sent the first email in 3 weeks to him. 

Of course, I woke up this morning and am feeling back to normal but so cross with myself for opening up this line of communication.

He has already replied:

I hope you can still have those thoughts about me

I mean, this just baffles me.  After everything that's happened recently...?  Really?

I am trying to objectively observe my feelings and emotions now.  I am feeling back on an even keel and not full of sadness or grief like yesterday (thanks, hormones!) but I am having various feelings as a direct result of this email exchange.

Hope
Yes!  I can't believe this!  I am feeling the familiar stirrings of a tendril of hope.  Sometimes I despair of myself!  What on earth will it take to stamp this stupid hope out?  I have 15 years of experience to know that this hope is utterly in vain.  I was expecting him to respond along the lines of 'yes, I thought that too' but instead he responded as above and I start thinking ... 'maybe...'. 

Relief
I have been content and happy with no longer communicating about the relationship, us, the abuse etc etc.  But not communicating raises my anxiety levels slightly.  So, a tiny bit of me feels relieved to have started to communicate again.  I know that this (and 'hope') are a result of the process of traumatic bonding.  But it doesn't stop how real that it is.

So, in a bid to not be 'sucked in' I am taking to trying to just observe and then release these feelings rather than internalise or act upon them.  I am going to continue with 'no contact' and not reply to this email.

This is what Lundy Bancroft says on the topic of Traumatic Bonding:

"Almost no abuser is mean or frightening all the time. At least occasionally, he is loving, gentle, and humorous and perhaps even capable of compassion and empathy. This intermittent, and usually unpredictable, kindness is critical to forming traumatic attachments. When a person, male or female, has suffered harsh, painful treatment over an extended period of time, he or she naturally feels a flood of love and gratitude toward anyone who brings relief, like the surge of affection one might feel for the hand that offers a glass of water on a scorching day. But in situations of abuse, the rescuer and the tormentor are the very same person. When a man stops screaming at his partner and calling her a "useless piece of *(%@" and instead offers to take her on a vacation, the typical emotional response is to feel grateful to him. When he keeps her awake badgering her for sex in the middle of the night and then finally quiets down and allows her to get some of the sleep that she so desperately craves, she feels a soothing peace from the relief of being left alone.

Your abusive partner's cycles of moving in and out of periods of cruelty can cause you to feel very close to him during those times when he is finally kind and loving. You can end up feeling that the nightmare of his abusiveness is an experience the two of you have shared and are escaping from together, a dangerous illusion that trauma can cause. I commonly hear an abused woman say about her partner, 'He really knows me,' or 'No one understands me the way he does.' This may be true, but the reason he seems to undersand you well is that he has studied ways to manipulate your emotions and control your reactions. At times he may seem to grasp how badly he has hurt you, which can make you feel close to him, but it's another illusion; if he could really be empathetic about the pain he has caused, he would stop abusing you for good."

My views and what I won't accept - email discussion

In response to an email/ text exchange last week I finally composed a reply and sent it to my husband.  I have had a very busy week, with family birthdays and a bereavement that means I haven't been able to reply until today.

This is what I wrote to him:

I don't think this discussion was really resolved.  I'm not sure it can be right now.  I want to talk a bit about some thoughts that arose out of this discussion (by email and text). 

The first thing, I mentioned to you on Friday.  Do you honestly believe that I have been "emotionally abusive for the majority of our relationship"?  Is this what you really think?   

Secondly, I don't want to be involved in dissecting the minutiae of our distant past relationship.  I can understand that this may be an important part of the process for you, but for me it isn't helpful at all - in fact it is detrimental.  I can only think that when you need to discuss things like this that you do it at your group and see if they can help you dissect and analyse your motives/feelings/actions back then (or mine).   

I am comfortable (at the moment) discussing things that arise from the group that you want to talk over in relation to our relationship now or going forward... ways of thinking you are not sure about or opinions you hold or values you hold and how I feel about them, all that stuff.  But I am choosing not to go over and over things that happened a long time ago.  You can still do that, but not with me.  I'm sorry if that makes anything difficult for you, but I have to do it. 

I will tell you this now - I was not emotionally abusive.  I might have done some idiotic, stupid things in the past but I am not an abusive person and I don't hold abusive values or attitudes.  This is a deal breaker for me.  I will not accept you telling me that I am or was.  If you believe this, and this belief can not change then that is something that will put an end to our relationship.   

In fact, it may help to know a few things that are deal breakers.  If any of these things continue to be part of your opinion and values then I am not going to continue the relationship.  If you continue to believe that:

• I am an abusive person.

• I am any of the things you have characterised me as: selfish, lazy, condescending, self centred, unfaithful

• You have any right to tell me how to live my life or spend my time, in any way

I think those are the main things that I won't live with any longer.  I don't know if you want or have or can change your views on these things.  I'm sure more might come up and if so I will let you know.

Edited to add my husband's response:

Accusations

If you are able to follow the blog, you will see that we've had some hot dialogue since the weekend.  The dialogue continued last night by text:

DH:  I don't know what I think or what to say, from your message it is clear we dcisagree with things that happened in the past, when I see you I don't care about it, when I think of us together as a family it seems futile and petty to bring up the distant past.  But as the other night proved sometimes I can't let it go.

ME:  I may well not be remembering it as it happened - I just can't remember, it's so long ago and so insignificant for me.  I can only comment on those things i can drag from my memory..but just think how does this stuff matter?  I just don't get it... Maybe it would help to think about why you want to bring this up and what exactly you WANT me to say - I presume there is something?  Agree with you?  Apologise for being insanely jealous in the past just like you?  Tell you I am just as much to blame for everything as you?  Just what do you want from this discussion?  I can only presume it is the blame game again?

DH:  Each individual thing may seem insignificant but all put together they make the abusive stuff a chronic problem (I am baffled by this statement) so when we don't agree on what happened I find difficulty in addressing my abusive behaviour because I don't want to apologise for things I don't see as my wrong behaviour, when I see it that it was you in the wrong sometimes.

I have been asking myself the same question all day.  I thought I would be happy knowing that you felt some of our problems were your responsibility.  You have done that so am I now changing the goalposts?  I suppose so.  It was fine until Sunday.  I think I feel you have only got the right to challenge me on certain aspects as I believe for the  majority of our relationship you have used emotional abuse against me, but as Lundy says I can't challenge you on that as I am the main perpetrator.  So I feel if you don't look at your side then you cannot judge me about mine.  I know this is probably text book abuser mentality, I am not saying it to start another row, I am being truthful to how I feel.

I am, once again (tiresomely), astonished.  I can't believe that he thinks I have been emotionally abusive for the 'majority of our relationship'.  I didn't know that he believed this.  It's so wrong, but yet so expected that it makes me feel a mixture of pity and sorrow. 

Basically, any normal reactions that were objecting to his poor behaviour he cites as 'abusive' because I was trying to stop him doing what he wanted.  Anything I did to challenge his abuse is also considered abusive.  I am going to ask him for a list of my abusive traits and incidents to see exactly what is going on in his mind!

What was on his mind..

So, we had the disastrously depressing 'date' night on Sunday that did not end well.  Yesterday (Tuesday) morning, first thing I received the following email:

I feel a bit dissappointed about last night, i was really looking forward to it and treating it like a date. I think that it was a mistake on mybehalf to expect a light hearted chat with some amiable comments on our relationship and how things are going. On a positive note i would rather flush out all my abusive thoughts now and so having disagreements/discussions i hope will prove constructive in the long run.

 

I felt my 'hackles' (is that the word) raise when you said that you feel i would rather have a doormat wife. I understand how through my abusiveness it is a logical conclusion to think that, but i find it very difficult to label myself like that. I would say that in any relationship abusive/ non abusive /personal/lbusiness etc that each party would like the other to agree with them, so looking at our relationship where i have been abusive and it is personal i cannot think of any discussion/argument that we have had where I would feel happy with you just 'rolling over' to let me get 'my way'. The closest i can think of was going to Cuba.

 

I think i misunderstood your intentions for saying it at first by pointing out that you have had 'your way' through a lot of our lives as you have been very instrumental in what we do.But taking what i think you meant which was simply 'i would prefer you to be a doormat' then no not at all, any time that i have said 'why wont you just obey me' i am sure would have been said in jest and you will have probably echoed my sentiments (in jest......possibly).

 

I feel I would like to either convince you of my point of view or visa versa eg. home ed. I dont really have much self pride and would always prefer to be convinced or proved wrong than you just go along with whatever i say.

 

I dont know if you still think that about me, it would slightly bother me if you did but I understand I have given you good reason to come to that conclusion so it hopefuuly wont be a big problem.

 

this may be a problem:

 

After that i couldnt really think straight so the next part you actually may not have said anything or you may have and it may have been intentional or not and you may agree with it whether you said it or didnt;

 

before i start i want to say that i realise this is coming from a blame/accept responsibilty perspective and to clarify how i see myself:

 

My abusive behaviour is 100% mine.

You have done nothing to cause it

I display abusive behaviour without any incitement by you as well as

Reacting in an abusive way as a way of dealing with everyday problems/differences

 

However

 

I still feel i need to put some blame on you for negative parts in our relationship. A while ago you sent an email or text in which i understood that you felt that you do have some culpabilty for bad parts of our relationship but that my abusiveness has far outweighed and so you are not willing to look at your previous responsiblities. I can accept and deal with this because though i see my abusiveness as my problem that i impose on you, you do admit that our relationship had other negativities that you brought to it. In short I am not 100% to blame for our problems but 100% to blame for my abusiveness.

 

I would like to know how you feel about this.

 

when I was talking about jealousy you said you didnt understand how I could be like that. and when i said you have acted out of jealousy in the past (distant i know) you justified it because of our circumstances. I know that my depths of jealousy are a lot deeper and still current but i felt you were being slightly aloof. to analogise: you were the older alcoholic who has been on the wagon for 10 yrs telling the drunk 'i dont understand what your problem is'.

 

i cant think anymore

It felt like a spiralling down.  :-(  Yet again, back to square one - will anything ever change?  I felt so despondant and had to do a day out with the children (pre-booked and paid for) which did not go well as I felt so stressed about everything. 

Last night I sent the following reply:

Well I didn't really want to reply, but here I am replying.  If there is even any point.

I felt really down and deflated and disappointed after the other night.  To be honest I don't feel like I want to do that again.  I don't know when I will feel like doing that again.  I suppose I had idiotically built up to thinking things might be nice and believing the hype about how much you'd changed and were viewing everything differently.  Stupid.  I knew that it was all going to be pretty surface-level but I suppose extreme gullibility and stupid levels of optimism have always been weaknesses of mine.

I just think... god, I can't say anything without it needing to be analysed to death.  This isn't really conducive to me wanting to communicate on a personal level - do you know what I mean?  

As far as doormat - yes, this is what I have deduced based on your actions.  I guess I couldn't figure out what would make you happy because I never seem/seemed to be able to, and all the evidence pointed to this.  I don't really want to go looking at everything that has happened to make me think this.  I just want to do a giant sigh at this point.

Yes, you being abusive is 100% your fault.  Any other problems that we would have been able to get over probably relatively easily are probably 50/50 but your abusiveness have actually made them into giant problems that are impossible to get over.

Re: jealousy.  Again... there is 'appropriate jealousy' and 'inappropriate jealousy'.  A lot of things you have attributed to me being jealous and unreasonable are actually nonsense and I was acting normally.  I have been confused over them for a while - i.e. me being jealous of you going out.  Well, I was puzzled about that.  Actually what made you come to that conclusion was the fact that I used to (errr... 10 years ago +??!!!) react negatively to you going out.  Now, when I think about it I know that it was reasonable to feel like that based on the facts that:

1. You used to 'pop out for a drink' and then 5 hours later I'd get a call to say you weren't coming home.  This was horrible for me.  Any normal person would find this not a good way to conduct a relationship.
2. When I couldn't afford to go out you still would *on a regular basis* AND be irate with me for having a problem with this.  At best, this was totally insensitive behaviour and again, most normal people wouldn't find this ongoing an acceptable way to behave.  I even remember getting ready with you to go clubbing and then when your friend drew up in the car you shouted that there wasn't enough room for me and off you went without me!!!  That is just total arsehole behaviour!  Do you really wonder why I used to be upset with you?  

Other times I probably was jealous over stuff that I shouldn't have been and it's another one of those things that I used to do in the stupidity of youth and that I've grown out of.  Yes, it was horrible to go through and I was probably unreasonable and nasty to you over stuff that was irrelevent.  If we'd both gone through that 'natural' phase of youth and then grown out of it then we'd not have these issues - I don't know.  But based on the fact that I haven't really experienced this unreasonable and unacceptable jealousy levels for so many years it really isn't appropriate.  

I do find it unfathomable like I said before, that after everything we have been through you are still acting like that towards me.  I can't understand it.  I can only presume that nobody ever would be able to ever prove to you that they are trustworthy.  I can't really say that I know how that feels, because every time I've been in a relationship and fallen in love and come to trust someone then that jealousy hasn't been there.  

You say you have little-to-no self pride.  I suppose that's part of the low self esteem thing.  I don't know if that's linked to the jealousy.  I have no idea what is psychologically going on with all that.  I do know that I can't help you with this, because I have been (I think) trustworthy, loving, tried to be supportive etc and it's not enough.  I don't think it's made any difference, which is sad.

I'm so exhausted of trawling through every minute of our past history (every minute that might somehow shift some blame from you to me, that is)..... when will this end????  When will it be enough?  

I feel so down about the last few days.  I know it's because I was too optimistic.  But still, I feel really down.

He has texted today to say that he feels down to, and feels negatively about my reply.  I don't know or want to guess what he was hoping to hear. 

I'm just left thinking why am I even contemplating the continuation of this relationship?  What is the point?  This kind of to-ing and fro-ing is going to continue for at least another year if not more.  So, I feel like I have two options:

1. I continue as I am, wait-and-see.  Hopefully the programme and work he is doing will enable him to change his abusive attitudes and values.  If not, then in a year or two I have to go through the stress of separating totally.  So, basically 2-3 years of uncertainty, emotional overload and grief for the possibility of a 'happy ending'.
2. I decide to end the relationship fully now.  Then in a year's time I will probably be fully recovered and the uncertainty/fear/grief will be over pretty much - or minimal.

This is the choice I face.  What I have been doing is choosing option 1.  What will probably happen now is that I won't be able to decide and therefore, by default, I will be choosing option 1 still.

Sometimes I wonder what is wrong with me?  Why can't I just move on and get over it?  What is it I am clinging on to?  The relationship has *never* been amazing or supportive or fulfilling - so why am I so reluctant to let it go?  I guess these are things I'll be contemplating over the next few days/weeks.

How to tell if he is REALLY changing

Quote from The Book (Why Does He Do That by Lundy Bancroft):

Steps to Change

1. Admit fully to his history of psychological, sexual, and physical abusiveness toward any current or past partners whom he has abused.  Denial and minimizing need to stop, including discrediting your memory of what happened.  He can't change if he is continuing to cover up, to others or to himself, important parts of what he has done.
2. Acknowledge that the abuse was wrong, unconditionally.  He needs to identify the justifications he has tended to use, including the various ways that he may have blamed you, and to talk in detail about why his behaviors were unacceptable without slipping back into defending them.
3. Acknowledge that his behavior was a choice, not a loss of control.  For example, he needs to recognize that there is a moment during each incident at which he gives himself permission to become abusive and that he chooses how far to let himself go.
4. Recognize the effects his abuse has had on you and on your children, and show empathy for those.  He needs to talk in detail about the short- and long-term impact that the abuse has had, including fear, loss of trust, anger, and loss of freedom and other rights.  And he needs to do this without reverting to feeling sorry for himself or talking about how hard the experience has been for him.
5. Identify in detail his pattern of controlling behaviors and entitled attitudes.  He needs to speak in detail about the day-to-day tactics of abuse he has used.  Equally important, he must be able to identify his underlying beliefs and values that have driven those behaviors, such as considering himself entitled to constant attention, looking down on you as inferior, or believing that men aren't responsible for their actions if "provoked" by a partner.
6. Develop respectful behaviors and attitudes to replace the abusive ones he is stopping.  You can look for examples such as improving how well he listens to you during conflicts and at other times, carrying his weight of household responsibilities and child care, and supporting your independence.  He has to demonstrate that he has come to accept the fact that you have rights and that they are equal to his.
7. Re-evaluate his distorted image of you, replacing it with a more positive and empathic view.  He has to recognize that he has had mental habits of focusing on and exaggerating his grievances against you and his perceptions of your weaknesses and to begin instead to compliment you and pay attention to your strengths and abilities.
8. Make amends for the damage he has done.  He has to develop a sense that he has a debt to you and to your children as a result of his abusiveness.  He can start to make up somewhat for his actions by being consistently kind and supportive, putting his own needs on the back burner for a couple of years, talking with people whom he has misled in regard to the abuse and admitting to them that he lied, paying for objects that he has damaged and many other steps related to cleaning up the emotional and literal messes that his behaviors have caused.  (At the same time, he needs to accept that he may never be able to fully compensate you.)
9. Accept the consequences of his actions.  He should stop whining about, or blaming you for, problems that are the result of his abuse, such as your loss of desire to be sexual with him, the children's tendency to prefer you, or the fact that he is on probation.
10. Commit to not repeating his abusive behaviors and honor that commitment.  He should not place any conditions on his improvement, such as saying that he won't call you names as long as you don't raise your voice to him.  If he does backslide, he cannot justify his abusive behaviors by saying, "But I've done great for five months; you can't expect me to be perfect," as if a good period earned him chips to spend on occasional abuse.
11. Accept the need to give up his privileges and do so.  This means saying good-bye to double standards, to flirting with other women, to taking off with his friends all weekend while you look after the children, and to being allowed to express anger while you are not.
12. Accept that overcoming abusiveness is likely to be a life-long process.  He at no time can claim that his work is done by saying to you, "I've changed but you haven't", or complain that he is sick of hearing about his abuse and control and that "it's time to get past all that".  He needs to come to terms with the fact that he will probably need to be working on his issues for good and that you may feel the effects of what he has done for many years.
13. Be willing to be accountable for his actions, both past and future.  His attitude that he is above reproach has to be replaced by a willingness to accept feedback and criticism, to be honest about any backsliding, and to be answerable for what he does and how it effects you and your children.

Phew!  If you are in or have ever been in an abusive relationship you will probably look at this list and think "that'll never happen" like I did/am.  I think it probably highlights how long and difficult the process of changing core beliefs and values will be.  I look at a few of these and can see that my dh will find those probably reasonably easy but others virtually impossible for him.  Properly - I suppose any change can be faked (and I'll copy over the list of 'how to tell when he's not changing' another time!) but they can't fake it indefinitely.  The truth of what they think/believe will have to come out at some point.

For my husband, I can see he's right at the beginning, making headway on some but probably hasn't achieved any of the above steps yet.  Step one - admit fully, without minimizing etc - well even yesterday I reminded him of when he sat on the bed saying "why can't you just obey me?" (in a half-jokey way) and his response was "but you said stuff like that".  (Which I didn't)  So, even with step one his sense of entitlement is (as Bancroft says) "like a rude, arrogant voice screaming inside his head".  I do have to wonder how far he can drag his sense of entitlement and justification before he falls back.  Pessimism, or realism?  Time will tell.

Jealousy, possessiveness, ownership

Part of an email my husband sent after week 3 of his abuser course.  He was role-playing a woman in a domestically violent relationship, set in a club where she was innocently dancing around and he was 'watching and stewing':

The scene they set was so true to our life I had to point out that it had direct relevance to me. We are covering jealousy later on the course but they 'indulged' me for a while. 

I said that while i was playing Sonia, i had been 'innocently' dancing with other blokes, i told them that when we were out I wouldnt think of you dancing innocently and i would stew about you wanting to be with other blokes. I cant even remember you dancing with anyone else except J and maybe R (two of his friends), but i know i have been in clubs with you 'spying' on you and waiting for you to go off with someone else so i can then justify my mental paranoia. 

Since we have had kids this sort of thing hasnt been a problem as we havent really been out. I have thought even before the course, how will i react if in a few years we go out and you are dancing with other men, i dont know. I dont think you would be going around dancing with one man to the next, but i would like to be the sort of person who can look at their wife dancing with someone else and think 'i am glad R is having a good time'.

I am wondering if it is my pre conceptions of what dancing with someone means, to be honest i think if someone was dancing with someone else in a club they would therefore fancy them, however if you had been dancing with R, i would see that as nothing, but i see J as a threat as i probably would a stranger.

I keep going back years ago when you would explain to me about life in <Caribbean> where anyone was dirty wining with whoever and it was just about having a good time, In my head i think it is too intimate to be 'just dancing'. If someone danced with me like that i would assume they wanted to have sex.

I know this is part of the bigger picture of jealousy and because i know i am really jealous i see that my view is probably skewed at best and actually wrong. I am looking for discussion/guidance.

I went to sleep, slept well (!) and this morning composed my reply to him:

 I don't think this is deliberate on your behalf, but what I see here is distraction away from the actual problem (your jealousy/values/attitudes) to focus on something which is not the problem at all.  I don't know if it's uncomfortable for you or hasn't occurred to you, to actually look at what values are driving this relentless unwarranted jealousy.  Lundy basically says that it's down to ownership - you basically think that I belong to you and all your jealous behaviours come from that value.  I don't know if this is true, or whether you could admit it if it was but might be worth thinking about. 

Anyway, I am not going to get into a discussion about this for a few reasons.  

Firstly, the problem here isn't my behaviour so it is pointless discussing my behaviour in hopes it will solve the problem.  I think of A here (my friend).  Her constant obsession over one part of her body - which part of the body she focusses on changes over time - but one thing I can be sure of is that she will not suddenly be happy if that certain part of her body is changed.  She will then fixate on another part of her body.  Not because there is anything wrong with her body, which isn't perfect but isn't fundamentally flawed either, but because there is a problem inside that needs to be fixed.  Likewise, your jealousy problem is not caused by any external factors or behaviour of another person, it is caused by something inside you.  Discussing the particular behaviours will not change the problem.  

Secondly, you might think it will change the problem but I assume we can both agree that in the past constant reassurance, discussion and my *actual* behaviour (never having been unfaithful) hasn't changed your jealousy.  You may disagree and still think it could, but I don't believe it can.  In fact, for me, it is actually harmful.  I need to reassert to myself and you that I haven't done anything wrong, I don't need to justify myself, that undermining like this (which it would be to get into a discussion of this) is really unhealthy for me.   

Thirdly, if anything else needs to be said... I don't think that this is the only thing you can't handle jealousy wise - as I mention above.  This is just the thing you are thinking of at the moment.  It is crazy to be wanting to discuss something that hasn't happened in over a decade because you are still fixated on it!  See 'did you sleep with J' (aforementioned friend of his) last year!  Plus, I'm thinking of the fact you think I'm sleeping with anyone I talk to (D?! (a female friend of mine)) and I hope you can see why I think the problem is not my behaviour and whether it is or was justifiable in any context, but your values and jealousy. 

I hope that part of the course comes round soon! 

It's interesting what you say about the role play.  I can't imagine that a role play would be so effective, but it sounds like it was useful.  Maybe I'm being ... suspicious here... but reading your email it felt a bit like you'd only mentioned the role play and apologised for physical violence etc to 'soften me up' so you could then discuss the perceived dancing issue.  Maybe you would have felt embarrassed going straight into the jealousy thing?  Maybe I'm over-thinking it. 

I know this probably isn't what you were hoping to get back in response, but hopefully it's of use.

I was hoping to back up with a few quotes from Why Does He Do That but I didn't have the time to read through it.  However, there is loads in there about this abusive possessiveness and jealousy.

I await his response, but am happy with what I sent him.

And then what happened?

After I sent that last email (previous post) I was absolutely high on anger.  However during the course of the day it subsided into disappointment and pure sorrow.  The possibility of him making any kinds of change just seem to be a million miles away from this email, even though it is such early days.  That small candle of hope died out a little bit more.

He didn't reply to that email until two days later when I asked him why the woman from the abuser programme was phoning me (I couldn't talk, was out with the children) and received this text:

Probably to let you know your husband is one of the best abusers they have seen and that despite still showing abusive traits of criticising, blaming etc he thinks you are a wonderful person.

I was obviously thrown off by this, following from previous emails.

He was picking up my eldest in the evening and dropping her home, so I asked him to stay back to talk.  I didn't want to talk about this specifically, but our daughter's birthday was the following day and we had to discuss plans/arrangements etc.

I have to be honest at this point and acknowledge that I also wanted to see him.  I suddenly missed him loads and wanted to be close to him.  I was also hormonal.  The hormonal time when you want sex (around ovulation).  God, I can't believe I'm being so honest on a blog!!  I was totally aware of this by the way.

So he came over in the evening and we talked for three hours.  Mainly about birthday arrangements, ongoing problems with the children etc.

Then I laid my cards on the table.  I asked him why it's so difficult for him to change if he loves me and lots of other things I can't remember.  He said he's sorry, he knows that everything is his fault, he is sorry that he's hurt me and that he knows that after everything that has happened it must make me feel even more hurt to read his abusive email.  He apologised for that, said he wrote it in anger (as I could tell due to lack of punctuation) and he doesn't know why he said those mean things because it's not what he thinks at all.  He spoke about the programme and various things in the book.

And I believed him.  I wanted to be close to him so I hugged him, we kissed, we ended up having sex.  :-/

Well, my anger took over.

My reply to my husband's email in the previous post was initially a short 'let's not do this, nothing is being achieved' type reply.  However, I felt angry with him and angry with the situation and as I'm trying not to repress my feelings any more and go with my intuition, I decided to send a 'fuller' email:

Ok.  Didn't want to get into it but I just have to reply.  I know it's pointless, and not good for me (or probably you) but anyway.  Will just have to 'act in haste and repent at leisure' or whatever the saying is.

I refered to D as you give the impression that it was just me that thought the house used to be messy, and that even if it was then so what. Whether people like the house clean is not the issue!!!!! Of course people like to live in a clean house.  The issue is that you thought it was my job to clean the house to your spec.  Or that someone with X amount of young children, with various other issues going on was sitting on her fat ass living the life of riley and doing 'fuck all'.  D wouldn't think that!  Neither would most normal non-abusive people.  That is what I was saying!!   It sounds as if your friendship with D is a world away from that of a few months ago when you said you found it difficult to talk with her as you felt she was being 'indirectly critical of you in some way. Again, storing up something I've discussed with you that I was worried about to twist around and 'use' against me.  God, could you be any more of a text book abuser?  What I was discussing with you in relation to D was that she didn't understand some of the parenting decisions that I have made.  A lot of people don't because people generally want to just control their kids.  But D is my friend so that upset me at a time that S was being particularly difficult.  NOTHING to do with this discussion at all!   Yes i did mention my mum,but then said for obvious reasons wont use her as an example. I was looking to use someone that you would feel comfortable with to say 'look its not just me that likes to live in a tidy house, 'normal' people like it also'. Again, twisting everything.  THIS IS NOT THE ISSUE.  Your workload; as far as stuff round the house i would agree that you did lions share, i would not question that at all. and you must be happy that the small increase in workload has meant the house is nice and tidy now.  Little dig there?  I haven't had a small increase in workload.  I have had a large decrease in workload which is why the house is nice and tidy now.  Because you are not here being another person creating mess and I now have a bit of time each week without the children to potter around and do housework.  The quotes from the book you used i understand and recognise in me. I struggle with the concept 'he doesnt believe that you should set any limits on his conduct or insist he meet his responsibilities' Is that not the conditioning that you as the woman are trying to escape? I understand that part as the man has should have no control over you (which i agree with) but the woman can have control over the man because we will substitute the word control with limits his conduct, and who is setting these responsiblities, you, me, lundy, society. that part to me seems like double standards, i dont get it.Well I hope that you do get it during the programme, because you are misunderstanding this bit.  Deliberately or not, I don't know.  I enjoy knowing that it is ok to go out and be tired/hungover the next day without being judged as a bad father.I am glad that you can enjoy this now.  Of course, let's ignore the fact that I rarely ever went out or had any time to myself.  Maybe I was a little irate about that.  Especially as if I did ever do something for myself then I got hauled over the coals for it (I can only use the writing course as an example because there has barely been anything else over the last 5 years).   that if i have to work late on a job i have not failed as a husband.Ok.  I am sure I have never said or implied that you have failed as a husband.  You have.  But I have never before said it, and not for this reason.  that if i spend money on tennis i have not taken it away from the family. Does the twisting around just come naturally?  How many times did I encourage you to play tennis with people or say that it might be a good way to make friends?  The ONLY times I ever discussed tennis in the negative was in reaction to you complaining about my writing course - trying to show that we both NEED to spend time doing our own thing.  And when you said you didn't have any time I would say 'what about tennis'.  REACTING TO YOU REACTING TO YOU REACTING TO YOU.  Likewise, if I ever mentioned money it was because you would have been complaining about me spending money on myself that 'we didn't have'.  REACTING TO YOU REACTING TO YOU REACTING TO YOU.  Get it??  Yesterday when you called and i was at M's i had a worried feeling that i was out late doing something i shouldnt, i am sure that will pass with time. I expect you will deny you ever treated me like that, maybe over the past few years, but over a decade of being made to feel guilty for going out kind of gets ingrained into you. You!?  You, who accused me of cheating saying this.... it's really quite funny.  'Abuse 101' as Lundy might say.  If I ever made you feel guilty for going out it was because I NEVER WENT OUT YET ANY TIME I TRIED TO HAVE TIME TO MYSELF YOU COULDN'T LET IT GO - writing course.  (have to harp on about this because I never had any time to myself otherwise).  You are right about double standards, but I'm not the one who had them.  I know that in the sexist world we live combined with my physical abusiveness and ongoing emotional abuse you have suffered more than me, but you have given me some crap as well.REACTING TO YOU.  I know I probably seem angry and irrational here A*****.  But I just can't believe you are still living so firmly in this justified, entitled world you have built around you.  Has nothing made any impact at all?  Nothing?  You are so firmly in denial it is scary.  I think it's going to be a long while before we can actually discuss any part of our relationship.  We are still poles apart.  Poles apart.  Let's carry on as we have been for the last few weeks while you attend the programme, and I carry on with what I'm doing.  I'd say it will be another couple of months or more before we might be ready to discuss this stuff properly.  I don't know what you think.    I just would like to add: "Step number 4 demands that the abusive man accept his partner's right to be angry.  He actually has to take seriously the furious things she says and think about them rather than using her emotional pitch as an excuse to stuff her opinions back down her throat".  (the part about real change). Although I know this was probably pointless.  Actually, I feel a whole load better having said it.

How is all this change coming along?

After my blog post the other night I called my husband back and we had a long conversation.

It was the same old stuff, he was re-gurgitating the old 'housework' stuff and making out he couldn't understand when something was a simple request or abusive blah blah blah.  Really, he is just feeling exactly the same.  He played a couple of new cards in this conversation though, so must have been thinking about it all for a while.

The discussion was interrupted when my youngest woke up so was continued briefly by text.

Me: Hmmm. I feel a bit like we've done the same old, same old a bit there.  Discuss different times/ways I didn't live up to your expectations, then how I behaved the same as you did.  Do you honestly believe that to be true?  That I put the same level (or anywhere near it) of expectations, forced my opinions or general disappointment as you did me?

dh: No, I never felt physically intimidated as you probably did, and I know that when you wanted me home instead of work it was because you needed support/wanted your husband to be with you.  At the same time if you say you have never imposed your beliefs onto me then I don't agree and will give examples.  There are what I see as easy fixes (for my own abusiveness) like the physical abuse, I can identify and rectify and say I would never do that again.  But the belief part I am finding really difficult.

Me: I know.  I don't want to get sucked back into endlessly discussing the trivia which i believe strongly are not the problem.  I know you prefer single incidents to highlight things but in this situation it doesn't work (in my opinion) because it is the whole picture.  Yes, someone can say "what have you been doing all day?" but that action is not abusive, it's the pattern/underlying attitude that pervades every interaction and emotion that is the problem.  Saying for example that I did 'X' doesn't really help unless you are saying that to a)justify what you did or b) show that you were no worse than me.  If this is the case then what is the point?

dh:  I was using the work examples when you said you have never made me feel bad by imposing your beliefs onto me.  I cannot think of any other way to try and validate my point of view on that matter.  I know that re hashing the old arguments isn't constructive in itself, but like I said I know that imposing my beliefs on you is wrong, so why do I still feel there are certain things I am justified about?  I don't think you are 'beneath' me at all, I don't feel woman are subservient to men, but I still feel there were things I 'had a right' to feel justified about, and that is a fundamental problem and it manifests itself as domestic duties which is why it keeps coming up time and time again.  I am sure you feel exhausted going over the same stuff again.  The only things I need to clarify with you are what you feel actually happened and hopefully within the group I can discuss it an not make you feel worse or critisized.

Me: I never said "I have never made you feel bad by imposing my beliefs'.  This is where I see you changing what I said and what I meant to excuse/justify your own actions.  I asked you specifically how you would have felt if I had spent the last 14 years continually telling you or implying that you were not earning enough money to support the family and that if you were out working then I expect you to bring home a certain (unspecified) amount which you never quite managed.  Continuing the analogy I was using in the hope you might find it useful (clearly you didn't) would have been about how I would also disapprove of anything you did which wasn't getting the money - bar certain other activities that I defined as acceptable - and so on.  It was pointless really, as I should have known because yet again you changed what I was trying to show or what I said and took a few isolated incidents that were largely unrelated to 'prove your point'.
Oh, and I honestly think that over the years what I was doing was trying to support you in what I thought (because you said it) that you wanted - to be able to be working less.  Maybe I over-assumed that your priority would be spending time with the kids but most times I was talking about hours you were working in relation to showing you that you could work less to achieve what I thought you wanted.  Not what I believed you should want.  Obviously if you tell me that you never wanted to work less or be home more then I was incorrect in those assumptions.  That is totally different to the whole thing to do with you, me and my role as the perfect wife, mother, cleaner.

I can't believe the lengths of those texts!  He didn't reply to the above for some reason and I had a sleepless night.  Fell asleep after midnight, woke frequently and finally woke before 6am.

What I've decided to do is be true and honest to myself.  If I have anything I want to say to him, I'm just going to say it.  With that in mind the next day I wrote the following email:

Ok.  I had hardly a wink of sleep last night - don't know about you... 

So, you say that the only thing you need to clarify is what I think happened.  I don't know what you are referring to with regard to this...? 

Anyway, I felt like I needed to write an email because text is ridiculous for communicating anything. 

I couldn't believe the conversation last night.  Although you were saying that you understood that this thing of expectations (or entitlement) was wrong that you didn't yet believe it.  That's no surprise considering you are only on week 2, but so much of what you said last night was pure entitlement and justification.  Example - D (a good friend of mine)!!!  I couldn't believe that!  If I walk into D's house and say 'what the hell's going on, it's a tip' or vice versa it's not actually an accusation that I/she believes that she/I hasn't been doing what they should be doing, or what 'everyone else' ought to be doing.  I think maybe you should phone D to find out if she believes that there have been times when I've not done all I ought to have been doing in the house.  I'm sure she'll be honest  with you about what she thinks.  This is another example of storing away a comment or even 10 that D may have made and then using them to justify your own sense of entitlement!  For goodness sake!  I know that D thinks I have and always have had my work cut out, that I rarely get a minute to myself, that I do everything for or with the kids, most of all that I work hard.  I don't think she ever would say that I live a life of luxury, lounging around reading and having a self focussed lifestyle as you have attempted to assert for a long long time. 

Yet again, we are discussing this topic!!!  Will it ever pass???!  You using something else to 'prove' that really you were right, which is taken totally out of context and/or is totally irrelevant. 

You also mentioned your mum's opinion which made me smile and shake my head.  Your mum got the edited version of our life, one where you came home from work bringing shopping on the way, cooked meals, cleaned and tidied around, basically did stuff that was not your normal thing!  I always felt like I had a bit of a holiday when your mum came!  Was great!  But it was not how things normally were.  You may disagree and I won't be surprised if you do, but that is my opinion of the truth.  So any opinions your mum has formed are not really accurate, I feel.  Also, she has lived with an emotionally abusive man for a long time and probably thought what she saw of our family was loads better than hers, but 1. it was edited and 2. being a bit less shit than shit doesn't make it good.  Also, I've overheard your little comments to your mum and occasionally Abi, last time at Christmas when I walked in as you were saying you'd 'had enough of waiting on me' and implying I wasn't really very ill - what a joke!   

Anyway, here I am yet again arguing with you over this trivia.  Sigh. 

So, moving on.  What do I feel happened?  I'm not sure what you are referring to. 

I think this sums it up:
"The Demand Man is highly entitled.  He expects his partner's life to revolve around meeting his needs and is angry and blaming if anything gets in the way.... The partner of this man comes to feel that nothing she does is ever good enough, and that it is impossible to make him happy.  He criticizes her frequently, usually about things that he thinks she should have done - or done better - for him."   

"The abusive man's high entitlement leads him have unfair and unreasonable expectations, so that the relationship revolves around his demands.  His attitude is "You owe me".  For each ounce he gives, he wants a pound in return.  He wants his partner to devote herself fully to catering to him, even if it means that her own needs get neglected.  You can pour all your energy into keeping your partner content, but if he has this mind-set he'll never be satisfied for long.  And he will keep feeling that you are controlling him, because he doesn't believe that you should set any limits on his conduct or insist that he meet his responsibilities". 

"He exaggerates and overvalues his own contributions... He seems to keep a mental list of any favours or kindnesses he ever does.. He thinks you owe him tremendous gratitude for meeting the ordinary responsibilities of daily life - when he does - but takes your contributions for granted" 

In fact, as far as clarifying what's happened in our relationship from my point of view - the book pretty much spells it out perfectly.  Every problem or issue practically is discussed at length.  That's why I feel pretty confident now in my perceptions of what has happened.  You'll never be able to convince me, no matter what you pull out of the bag, that I have been self serving, lazy or lead a selfish lifestyle.  I always knew it was incorrect, because I lived my life and knew that your description of it was wrong, but now I can be confident that you are wrong and see clearly the reasons why you are still trying to explain how I was like that, and even how other non-abusive people saw me like that too (D).  I am so happy to be free from the questioning of myself that you used to impose on me! 

One thing I've noticed since you left is that my workload at home has not hardly increased at all.  I think maybe one or two extra dishwasher loads to empty/fill, take the bins out and maybe an extra wash load a week?  It's become so obvious to me that I was indeed doing 95% of everything to do with running the household (including bills/paperwork/food/clothes etc shopping).  I'm so happy to have that confirmed.  Another area of A*****-imposed self doubt slips away. 

 I'm not saying this because I want you to feel bad, and I'm sure you don't - you probably just disagree and think I've still got it all wrong - but I do want to be honest.  I don't want to keep quiet about what I feel and think any more. 

So, although I miss you and your company I don't miss most of the things that you brought with you.  I'm absolutely enjoying being my own person.  I can cook what I want, buy what I want, clean what and when I want, read if I want, watch what I want on the tv etc.  Nobody disapproving of me and my actions.  It's wonderful.  I finally feel that this is my home.  To live under watch is not a positive state. 

I mean most of this discussion is about one small area.  We've not touched on the jealousy, accusations that I've been unfaithful, and so on.  These are the things that I wonder about.
If we lived separately forever, but decided to be in a relationship then ?maybe the issue over whether I am good enough around the house wouldn't be an issue.  But what about the rest.  Even if we didn't live together wouldn't you still make snide comments to belittle me?  Would you believe I was unfaithful and accuse me?  Would your need to control me get even worse?  Would you be able to argue without twisting things round?  Would you ever be able to take responsibility for your actions instead of blaming me/anyone else?   

I suppose these are the issues that will hopefully be decided over the next 6 months - I hope.
So, this is what I think and how I'm feeling at the moment.  I do still feel I love you and want to be with you, but am wondering if I even know you?  The real you, under all this crap ... or is this crap the real you and there is nothing underneath?  If I knew 100% that we'd be able to have a happy, healthy, normal relationship I'd be back together in a heartbeat.  I don't know if I'll ever know that. 

None of these opinions or feelings or emotions are up for debate, or to being denied.

I didn't hear anything all day yesterday, and was slightly apprehensive.  I thought that the reply I got would tell me a lot about how things are going for him.  This was the reply he finally sent late last night:

As you say we have gone over this subject too many times, i think i understand the accepted view that it is not right to judge or expect others to do things to your own expectations. So when i ask about clarification it is because as i said yesterday are couples not allowed to request anything from the other incase it is seen as abuse. From what you said i understand it depends on whether one of the parties has had a long history of negative attitude and disapproval of the other, this then taints any 'reasonable' request. 

This is how i now understand it from speaking to you yesterday, so i look back to things i have requested from you that I feel are not overstepping the 'abuse boundary' such as asking you to sew my trousers. If you think this sort of thing in itself is abusive then i still dont understand, but if it is that on top of abusive beliefs and entitlement it is tainted then i do undertand that.


I refered to D as you give the impression that it was just me that thought the house used to be messy, and that even if it was then so what. I dont think it is wrong to want to live in a clean and tidy environment and I feel that people like D have the same opinion. I have not given any thought as to whether she feels you work hard, live a life of luxury, lounge around reading having a self focussed lifestyle. I know these are things i have rashly said before, but not regarding this. It sounds as if your friendship with D is a world away from that of a few months ago when you said you found it difficult to talk with her as you felt she was being 'indirectly critical of you in some way.


Yes i did mention my mum ,but then said for obvious reasons wont use her as an example. I was looking to use someone that you would feel comfortable with to say 'look its not just me that likes to live in a tidy house, 'normal' people like it also'.


When my mum was here yes i did sometimes get some shopping, cook meals, cleaned and tidied, basically did stuff that yes i did normally do, not the majority of the time but regularly (especially at weekends) so if she was here at those times she would witness that. But unless it was xmas the majority of the meals she ate were yours, you did most of the shopping and tidying. it sounds like your implying that i only ever did stuff when she was here?
I dont agree with a lot of my mums opinions regarding domestic stuff and  it gives good examples of how i am abusive with you.


Your workload; as far as stuff round the house i would agree that you did lions share, i would not question that at all. and you must be happy that the small increase in workload has meant the house is nice and tidy now.


The quotes from the book you used i understand and recognise in me. I struggle with the concept 'he doesnt believe that you should set any limits on his conduct or insist he meet his responsibilities' Is that not the conditioning that you as the woman are trying to escape? I understand that part as the man has should have no control over you (which i agree with) but the woman can have control over the man because we will substitute the word control with limits his conduct, and who is setting these responsiblities, you, me, lundy, society. that part to me seems like double standards, i dont get it.


I too share your feeling of freedom, it is nice and i am still getting used to it. I enjoy knowing that it is ok to go out and be tired/hungover the next day without being judged as a bad father.that if i have to work late on a job i have not failed as a husband.that if i spend money on tennis i have not taken it away from the family. Yesterday when you called and i was at M's i had a worried feeling that i was out late doing something i shouldnt, i am sure that will pass with time. I expect you will deny you ever treated me like that, maybe over the past few years, but over a decade of being made to feel guilty for going out kind of gets ingrained into you. 

I know that in the sexist world we live combined with my physical abusiveness and ongoing emotional abuse you have suffered more than me, but you have given me some crap as well.

So, I would be really interested to hear what other people make of this reply.  I just hear the same stuff and think nothing has changed at all!  I know he is only at the beginning of this so-called journey to change but even after reading the book, attending 3 individual sessions, 2 group sessions and us being separated... well, nothing seems to have changed.  

Most of what is in the email is just lies, or more accurately things that have happened but have been twisted around to try to blame me.

One good thing - I've decided to look for abuse counselling for me asap.

The Co-Dependancy 'thing'

Copied from a forum post:

Ok, I am struggling with this whole concept.


Firstly, Lundy says:

"when an abused woman refuses to "look at her part" in the abuse, she has actually taken a powerful step out of self-blame and toward emotional recovery. She doesn't have any responsibility for his actions. Anyone who tries to get her to share responsibility is adopting the abuser's perspective."

I feel this goes totally against the whole 'co-dependancy' concept. But I'm wondering if I'm missing the point somewhere?

I don't know if I'm in denial here, but I don't think I am (but then how do you know).

When I look at my story I would say that I feel like I was scammed. Every time something happened in our relationship that was unacceptable I sought to find out what the cause was, and whether I could fix it.
Example, initially we were young and people told me he was just immature and he would grow out of it. He also was using some drugs and when I researched it I found that some of the problems he had were common in people using those drugs. So I gave him an ultimatum and he stopped using those drugs. Then it was a 'self esteem' problem. I researched it, spoke to people and tried to find ways to help his self esteem. Then it was exhaustion caused by having young children and a stressful job. I could empathised and tried to practically help. When I thought I could fix it no more we went to couples counselling where I was told it was a communication problem and that my husband might have Asperger's Syndrome. I was given ideas to help. We went to see an expert and my husband was assessed and we were told he did, indeed, have Asperger's. There is a raft of information and literature about this and suddenly everything was rationalised.

At no point did someone say to me "your husband is emotionally abusive". I sought help and advice from loads and loads of 'experts' and also friends and family. Nobody ever said his behaviour was unacceptable, though I described it in detail. Everyone said 'oh my husband is like that' or 'it's a part of his asperger's, he is physically unable to understand your emotional needs' or 'all men do that' or whatever.

I am co-dependant now, I think. I am co-dependant as a result of the abuse I have experienced. I wasn't co-dependant when we met. I was empathetic, loving, innocent, trusting, generous, forgiving. Probably totally naiive and maybe unsure of myself (I was only 19 years old). I feel like I've been scammed and tricked. I feel like so many people have played along with the trick.

I genuinely had no idea that my husband was just plain old abusive. I believed that there were all these issues that I could help to fix and then it would be OK, because it wasn't just him telling me - it was all these other so-called experts!

My husband was physically abusive 3 times in 14 years, verbally abusive just once. He was emotionally abusive which is so much subtler and more difficult to identify! Hell, Lundy Bancroft has to devote a whole chapter to the topic of how to tell if behaviour is abusive or your partner is having a bad day! Surely that should tell us that it isn't as easy as making a choice not to be treated like that??!

As soon as I realised that it wasn't immaturity/low self esteem/childhood issues/Aspergers but that he was abusive and trying to subtly control me, we separated.

Maybe my story is different from other's, but I just don't believe that I have been co-dependant from the start and have chosen to stay in an abusive relationship.

Anyway, I've rambled enough but I appreciate hearing what other people think on this topic. Like I say, maybe I'm just in denial and it will take longer for me to gain a more objective view. I just can't help distrusting a concept which is.... subtly... saying that it is slightly the woman's fault that she stayed there.

Abuser group - week 1

Last night was dh's first group session on the abuser's course.  He has had three individual sessions but joined the group last night for the first time.

This was our text exchange last night.

Me: What happened tonight?  Did you go?

DH: Just got back, it was ok.  As there are 11 others I didn't get to discuss exact things related to me the whole time (unlike the past few weeks).  I think I will have to keep referring back to my own experiences rather than wait for someone to try and draw it out of me.  We were discussing physical violence, this week was about identifying, I think next week will be relating to ourselves, and the week after how to stop/avoid, but I am just assuming  (can you sense the entitlement issues here?)

Me: Does it relate at all to what Bancroft describes?

DH: What he describes as physical abuse?

Me: No, the programme.

DH: A bit, I think Bancroft would be a lot harsher, I read online he thinks all abusers should do time.  I can understand that but I don't really agree with a lot of custodial sentancing, especially if it's me getting sent down.

Me: Hmmmm.  I wish Bancroft's programme was in the uk.

DH: I think it follows it very closely, but he doesn't actually set out a step by step guide to a good course.  But some of the points he raised as signs of a good course are lacking.

Me: Like?

DH: They don't tell you everything.  Apart from one bloke, everyone seems to fully accept their abusiveness and are concentrating on how to stop. Maybe they are just saying the right things, but from reading Bancroft he comes up against a lot of denial.  I saw this in the first week but not really today.

Me: Fully accept or accept bits?

DH: It is a 27 week programme so after my 1st 2 hrs with 11 other blokes I have only just met I couldn't really say.

Me: Alright.  No need to get narked.

DH: Tonight was about getting us to think about stuff, we watched a video with actors playing a scene of Domestic Violence.  It could have been easy to look at it and say 'I'm not like that' or just not say anything, like I said I think the thing will be to keep recognising the relative bits and relating them to my own experience.

Me: Will leave you to think.

So.  I am not engaging too much, but trying to be supportive and find out exactly what is happening and how he is reacting to this.  It's a difficult path to tread.  Getting information (the programme won't be giving me any) without getting involved.

I don't know what others think when they read this.  I am interested-from-a-distance.

A good description of Emotional Abuse

For those who want to know more about emotional abuse a friend on an emotional abuse forum just posted a link to a fantastic article which describes it really, really well.  I was nodding all the way through!

If the article makes you stop and think or you recognise your relationship in it, then do yourself the biggest favour of your life and buy this book.  ;-)  

(I'm thinking I should take shares out in this book!!)

Abuser programme contact

I finally got a call yesterday from the 'women's support worker' or whatever she was called.  I had no warning so it threw me a bit.

Started off by asking some random questions, don't know if this was so she could guage the sort of abuse that has happened or what.  It was quite upsetting.  I suppose in this kind of situation I feel an overwhelming need to convince the person that A was abusive.  Ridiculous, but as a result of this urge I have divulged some information recently to numerous people that I wouldn't necessarily have chosen to divulge if I'd had time to stop and think.  <sigh>

Anyway, she was also quite vague about the point of her contact.  She wasn't verifying information that she had, she wasn't offering counselling, she wasn't giving me information about his programme so I was a bit confused I suppose.

Halfway through I remembered the part of The Book (Bancroft WDHDT) that shows how to evaluate the effectiveness of an abuser programme, and a checklist of warning signs that the programme is ineffective.

There were a few warning signs.  She spewed out the old 'confidentiality' thing so that unless something is said in the group that implies I am specifically at risk I won't know anything that is said or done.  This was a warning sign in the book.

Also, I asked what percentage of men who go through the programme change.  She was extremely vague but actually plucked the figure of 80% out of the air!  80%  Unbelievable!  The chances that 80% of the men on the programme come out non-abusive are zero, and the failure to admit that was a big sign that the programme is ineffective.  Under further questions it turns out that 80% of the partners she talks to say that things 'are better'.  Not non-abusive, but better.  And this is during the group.  So, that makes a bit more sense.  I re-iterated that I'm not interested in having a relationship again if he's just not as abusive as he was before, I will only possibly be interested if he is totally non-abusive and I can believe that he is.  This is a tall tall order.  I can't imagine being totally comfortable living with him again.  I just can't.

So, I'm having my doubts about the programme, and just fingers crossed that it's of the Bancroft variety rather than the crap variety.

Abuser programme and contact

DH starts it tomorrow.  And I am anxious.

From reading The Book I know that many of the abuser programmes that are out there are not great.

Apparently I should have been contacted prior to the start of his programme by a 'Women's Support Worker'.  I don't know what they would be talking to me about, because they haven't contacted me which is already not a brilliant sign.  I'll try not to form judgements at this stage though.

DH has two individual 'sessions' with the person running the programme before he starts attending the group.  I'm thinking that possibly I will be contacted after these individual sessions so that I can provide my version of events and tell my story but I don't know.

Bancroft clearly states that the role of the abuser programme should be first and foremost supporting the woman, with the woman as the client.  This means sharing information and providing advice on dealing with the abuser if necessary, and getting support for recovering from the abusive relationship.  I hope I hear from them soon, otherwise I just feel the programme will be doomed to fail.  Already DH has started making noises about the cost of the programme, and I'm sure after a couple of sessions it will be complaints about the travelling distance and who knows how long til he uses these as excuses to stop attending?  When it get's hard.

Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but with my experience and the stuff I've read I'm more inclined to say realistic.

Today, I have had contact with DH.  More than in a while.  We took the kids to the cinema - he took the older ones in to see one film and I took the younger one to see a different one.  So, we weren't really together much, but there was still more contact than we've had before.

Afterwards we went (in separate vehicles) to the park where dh stayed with ds who had sprained his ankle and I took the others out to play.  Again, not a lot of time together but more than in the last three and a half weeks.  It was tense and awkward, of course.  All this is new and boundaries need setting.

I've suggested that in the future we might arrange one family afternoon activity a week where we are all together.  Not sure if that's for the best, or a result of my recent feelings of sadness, or what.  I guess the main thing is that I follow my instincts and do what I think is the best.

I'm really starting to feel that sense of enjoyment and comfort at home that I haven't had for many years.  Just a sense of coming home and feeling peace and contentment.  The absence of pressure or anxiety.  I don't fully appreciate it yet as it's a bitter sweet pill, combined as it is with long periods of previously-unknown solitude.

I don't know how long it will take me to fully embrace the freedom and peace AND solitude but I do know that it will come, in time.

Feeling ill, clearing anxiety and fear - and dh again.

I don't know if everyone is like me, but often during emotionally charged times I get physically ill.  Particularly, I have a weak stomach and suffer nausea and/or vomiting.

I am taking homeopathic remedies to help me at the moment, and they have always been very effective on me.  (what can I say, a control group of one).

On Tuesday night, bang on midnight (bizarrely) I woke up with an excruciating pain in my stomach.  On the right hand side between my lower rib and hip.  It was awful and I lay in agony for around half an hour.  Then I started being sick and I felt like it wouldn't end.  My stomach felt enormously bloated and the pain was horrible.  I didn't feel ill in any other way, like you normally do with an infection or something.  The pain and vomiting went on til around 2am when I finally got back to sleep.

Yesterday I felt nauseous all day and had a banging headache - I'm sure due to the strain of being so sick early that morning, and today the nausea has gradually diminished over the day.  Hopefully I'll be fine by tomorrow morning.

Something that surprised me was that from yesterday morning I have felt suddenly very calm and in control.  Those rollercoaster of emotions seems to have dampened a lot, and I'm just feeling a bit sad but I'm ok.  Not the awful ups and downs and terrible racing thoughts that I've had since everything happened.

So, I'm thinking that I literally emptied my body of all the fear and anxiety that I had been experiencing.  Not only during the last 2+ weeks, but also during the previous years of the relationship.  I know that might seem unlikely, but that's what I'm thinking has happened at the moment.  And I'm feeling Ok.  Not great, not singing and dancing, but Ok - like I will cope and everything will be fine at some point.

I have seen a fair bit of dh over the last few days.  He's had a week off work and so has been seeing the children more, which of course means more pick ups and drop offs.

He already said that he's told his mum everything, yesterday he told me he'd told his dad everything.  Now, I don't know particularly how to feel and you know what - that doesn't matter.  Uncertainty is a pretty valid emotion and feeling right now, I believe.

I'm wondering if he really has - if he has told them everything he says he has then I'm surprised I've not heard from his mum by now.  It has occurred to me that having read The Book he knows what to say he's doing to convince me he has changed (this is one of the things - fully admitting what you have done to everyone).

I was considering phoning his mum and having a chat... I'm not sure if that's the best course of action.  Sitting back and believing what he's telling me hasn't worked well so far.

But then, maybe it just doesn't really matter and I just need to focus on myself and my children and our recovery rather than second guessing everything else.

Another thing to ponder in the wee hours :-)  But at least my mind has stopped racing - that is a real blessing.

The Long Haul

Abusers are masters of storing away their resentment or anger to unleash on the unsuspecting victim days, weeks or months after the actual incident that has pissed them off.  Well, according to most things I've read and my dh is no different.  Obviously this sort of behaviour is a total mind-f*ck because usually they never let on what has initially started it all off (probably because they can see how unreasonable or childish their actions would be in the cold light of day) so for the victim it's totally 'out of the blue'.

I've been (obviously) thinking over so many things lately with my new 'clarity goggles' to cut through the fog of confusion that he's built around me.  I thought it might be useful to put down on paper one of these 'long haul' incidents.

This is quite recent and is actually the incident that lead to our separation and I mentioned it before but have been giving it more thought.

The initial incident.
Was Christmas just gone.  As usual we had both families due to visit and stay for the whole holiday period.  From the 23rd December to the 1st January we were scheduled to have a variety of visitors. 

Unfortunately we had a nasty flu-y sort of virus going round the children and lo-and-behold I got it on the 23rd December.  I tried to avoid being ill.  I continued shopping and was up til 11.30pm on Christmas Eve wrapping presents while feeling dreadful.  Dh got drunk and did nothing because he apparently is rubbish at wrapping presents.  Really, he just didn't want to do it.  My sister was there and was appalled and told him how lazy he was being.  We have 4 children... there were hundreds of things to wrap.

Gradually I got worse until on Boxing Day I was laid up in bed all day.  Dh came in and out asking me if I was going to be laying in bed all day.  He was obviously annoyed because it meant he would be doing all the hosting and cooking etc for a change.  (He did always cook Christmas Dinner - he is a 'show cooker' - only doing it when there is an appreciative audience (not us))  On the 27th - 31st I was still ill and came down when people were visiting but needed to regularly lie down to recuperate.  I looked and felt awful.

My sister got really angry as she overheard him moaning about me to his family saying he'd had enough of 'looking after her' now and implying I just couldn't be bothered to have to do anything.  Bearing in mind his idea of looking after might have been 2 or 3 drinks over the course of the two weeks that I was ill, it's hardly like he's been Florence Nightingale.

However, he didn't really say anything - just complaints and comments here and there to family, statements to me that Christmas 'wasn't enjoyable at all' and then when everyone had gone we got back to normal, I thought nothing more of it.

The build up.
Once I was better again dh started making comments that he could feel a bad time coming on between us.  I was surprised as I had thought that we had been getting on relatively well for a few months.  I said as much.  But every few days he made little comments and started saying that we always have a difficult time at this time of year etc. 

Now I think that he obviously was building himself up to a row to get out all the anger about me 'selfishly' ruining HIS Christmas by being ill.

First Attempt at lighting the touchpaper
Ten days or so into the new year dh suddenly started saying he wanted another baby.  I was stunned!  During every pregnancy and for the first year his abusiveness has always been at a peak, and each time I have been left devastated by the lack of support and downright nasty behaviour at a time that should be filled with joy.

My last pregnancy put such a physical strain on me, I was so ill - we decided that it would definitely be the last.  I have been pregnant or had young children since I was eighteen-years-old and am now in my mid-30's.  For me, that's enough.  I can just about cope happily with the children I have and have no desire for any more.  This is one of the very few topics that I am unswayable on.  And dh knows it.

So, out of the blue one night he says he wants another baby.  I laugh, because I think he's joking.  He looks seriously at me so I say, of course I don't want any more children - for me, four is enough.  He says "don't you think that's really selfish".  I say no and start to list reasons, wondering 'didn't we have this conversation?  Didn't we agree?'

So he says 'what if we won the lottery?'.  I say that doesn't change anything, for me it's not about the money.  It's the fact that for me I can't have another baby and go through another pregnancy, that I'm enjoying the children growing up and being able to be there for them and do things that we couldn't do with another baby etc etc.  So he starts saying how I'm being really selfish.

I now see he was trying to pick a fight.  He really believed I was being selfish when I was ill over Christmas, this is what this little conversation was about.  However, I was so stunned by this sudden turn of conversation that I just shrugged and left the room so he didn't get to let out all those built-up emotions tell me what he thought of me.

The successful attempt
He continued his 'we are going to go through a bad time' routine, which I was totally baffled about.

Then a week later - touchdown!  In popped the credit card bill which dh could convince himself in a very roundabout way that he knew nothing about.  Result!  And of course the bare facts of this (him allegedly having no knowledge about it) would mean that his actions would be easy to justify to himself, me and if necessary anyone else.  It doesn't matter if he had twisted the bare facts (because we'd agreed to spend this money on the credit card) because I didn't have proof of that decision we made together and he could talk it around so that he knew we decided that, but then thought I wasn't going through with that decision.  Hmmm. Clear as mud, yes?

When I got home he was holding the statement and going through the roof about it.  I've written before what happened, but it culminated in him screaming about me doing 'F. All' around the house, 'F. All' to contribute to anything, him working hard for me to lay around doing nothing and reading all day.  Now these things are total rubbish, couldn't be further from the truth.  But they are true about what happened when I was ill at Christmas.

And thus, it took him a while - around 2-3 weeks after the initial 'incident' but he got his anger and resentment out, supposedly justifiably, in the end.

Of course, this time it backfired, as I found the book and saw in all truth what he'd been doing and what was going on - but for fourteen + years this tactic has worked perfectly and he's managed to abuse and insult me to my face but then somehow twisted it round so it's my fault he's done it.

Quite clever, I suppose.

Whose fault is it anyway?

Dh popped by the children's club today.  We were together for over an hour watching them take part. 

He obviously wanted to talk, or to reconnect, to reassure himself all is not totally lost.  You may find this bizarre after reading of things that have happened.

He has been talking to his mum daily over the last ten days, telling her about the abuse.  She was disbelieving at first but as he is explaining exactly what he has done (well, probably not *exactly* but as near as he can bear) they are discussing a lot about dh' dad.  Apparently everything dh says he was like, she says 'your dad did that'.  His mum and dad divorced when dh was around 17 years old. 

I think they are on a little journey of discovery together.  Dh plans to send her The Book to read (it is very validating and clarifying for anyone who has been abused) but as she's about to have a major operation, he is going to wait for a couple of months.

Naturally, she has now started to blame herself for not leaving or doing something about it earlier.  Apparently the evidence does clearly show that the single most dominating factor in whether men become verbally or emotionally (or physically maybe) abusive is that their father was abusive in this way. 

Questions running through my mind now:

• Is DH trying to pin the blame on his mum or dad, rather than take responsibility for his own actions?
• If so... well, is that all wrong? 
• Or is he totally to blame? 
• What does this mean for our children? 
• Are they destined to continue this cycle?
• How can I break it? 
• Is it too late?
• Will Dh actually change if all he is doing is transferring blame for his behaviour from me to his parents?

As you can see, confusion still reigns supreme.  I am not sure how to even respond to these discussions.  It will be a while before I can truly sense my gut reactions, I guess, and probably even longer til I can trust and believe them.

Another thing today was that DH asserted that he did (abuse) the same as his dad but 'not as badly'.  Again, I don't know because I wasn't there and don't know his dad very well.  But, this sounds like slipping back into minimising his behaviour to me....  Again, didn't know how to respond so just looked at him.

Then he said that The Book laid 'everything' out really clearly and practically... though 'harshly'.  Then he looked at me and I replied 'no, realistically' and he shrugged.

These little exchanges and conversations keep confusing me a little, because I'm not sure how to respond.  I feel my senses and reactions are still dulled from years of 'keeping the peace' and 'holding my emotions in' because they were too overwhelming for dh. 

And I'm so tired after yet another 5am early wake up of racing thoughts <sigh>

Oh, why is this feeling like such a long road?

Abuser Programme consultation

On Friday, dh went along to his consultation to see if he was a suitable candidate for the abuser programme.  He has been accepted onto the programme.  He will have two individual consultations, then go into a weekly group programme.  He starts on the 7th February.

Apparently the 'women's support worker' will be contacting me about it during the next week or so.  This is a good sign, as it ticks the first in the list of 'How to assess whether the abuser programme is effective' from The Book.

I was roller skating and then swimming with the children while dh was going to this.  Afterwards, in the car park I received a call from him.

He was telling me the cost of the sessions (high) and then said he was only doing this because he wanted us to get back together, and before he went ahead he wanted to know if that's what I wanted too.  So, unlike his previous assertion that he wanted to change for himself, already I'm hearing that he is only doing this to get back together (get what he wants).  He's also asking me to commit to this, as long as he completes the programme.  How do I know if he'll complete the programme AND change?  I know it's early days and I can't expect him to be nonabusive right now, but I did find his speed at pressuring me annoying.  I told him frankly that I can't possibly know how things will pan out and cannot say what I will want in six months or a year or two years time, so he has to decide to attend without knowing the outcome.

I felt like he wanted to ask me, so that if he completed the programme (but stayed the same as the majority do, sadly) and I still didn't get back together with him he could play the victim and blame me for the breakup.

Yet again, I am so so so so thankful that I found that book.  It's like a guide that tells me exactly how he will try to manipulate and play me next.  Nothing is a surprise, and it's really helping me to stay strong and sure in myself.  Or at least act like I am!

I await the call from the support worker and am staying objective, distant but positive regarding his abuser programme.  Not sure if this is the right decision, but I have to hope so.